• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Health and the Gospel

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LouisBooth, Jun 20, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Hobart:

    You wanted Scripture.

    Matthew 10: 6-10
    Jesus seems to be telling His disciples that they won't gain anything but basic sustenance for following His word.

    Matthew 16: 24-26
    Jesus says we must pick up OUR Crosses and follow Him. And nowhere does He say we get to put it down! He will certainly help us carry our crosses, but they are ours to bear. Christianity isn't an EASY life to live, otherwise people would be lining up en masse to get into churches worldwide. To be Christian is to live a life of sacrifice, to put the self to death in order to live in Christ.

    JESUS cured, to get the attention of the people. But it wasn't "miracle on demand." He said as much to the Pharisees, who wanted Him to prove Himself, to their satisfaction.

    I hope you live a long, healthy, prosperous life, Hobart. I hope your family does too. I'm sure you'll save a fortune in medical bills, and health insurance premiums; perhaps that is where your prosperity will come from.

    If this is how you wish to interpret Scripture, then, by all means, help yourself to it. However, you cannot apply your yardstick of judgment against others. We, too, have OUR interpretations, and can justify our beliefs as well. Calling our contradictions "straw men," though, certainly won't endear you to many, nor win converts to your belief. And throwing away the examples of suffering that are presented to you as "aberrant" and "typical arguments" truly demeans those who indeed have suffered.

    As for me, I've seen far too much adversity amongst people with genuine faith in God to buy the scenario you are selling. And I wonder just what would happen if your pretty balloon were ever to pop.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  2. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,164
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Of course I knew that is what you meant. But when we are discussing things in depth, we have to be specific and precise. We have to use the terminology that the New Testament uses and then things become clear.

    Did you know that the word never says that the death of Jesus secured the new birth? It was actually the resurrection that secured the new birth for us.

    1Pe 1:
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    And:

    Eph 2:
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


    One more for good measure:

    Rom 4:
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification .


    So we are born again by the resurrection.... not by the cross. Of coures He had to go through the cross to get there... but the cross dealt with sins , whereas the resurrection dealt with the sin nature .
     
  3. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,164
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    [GLOW=orange]Thank you! [/GLOW] And thank you for the discussion.
    Perhaps we will find common ground in other areas?
    I hope so!
    Blessings to you!
     
  4. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
    Pentecostal
    Married
    AU-Liberals
    Sorry if some of you may be confused here, but I felt that this subject on 'healing' was moving away from the original topic of prosperity/wealth.

    Happy posting!
     
  5. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,164
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    The topic at the top of my screen says "Health and the Gospel". Did you mean it the other way around? :confused:

    Thanks
    Hobie
     
  6. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
    Pentecostal
    Married
    AU-Liberals
    The posts above were in the 'prosperity' thread. I've moved them and created a new one.
     
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    It continues to amaze me how Christians fail or refuse to accept that healing is part of the redemption.

    ¥ Sicknesses as one of the curses of the Law:

    Deu 28:61 -- Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD permit upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

    ¥ Redeemed from this curse, along with all others:

    Gal 3:13 -- Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    It amazes me that people think salvation is only spiritual, when the NT word "saved" (refering to salvation by faith) itself -- "SOZO" in the Greek includes healing and protection.

    eg: Joh 3:17* For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved [sozo].

    According to Strong's numbers:
    4982 \~sozo\~ sozo {sode'-zo} from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe");
    TDNT - 7:965,1132; v

    AV - save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, misc 3; 110

    1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
    1a) one (from injury or peril)
    1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
    1b1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
    1b) to save in the technical biblical sense
    1b1) negatively
    1b1a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
    1b1b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
     
  8. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    to Andrew and Hobart

    blessings to you both... but may I ask a question? Have you or any of your loved ones ever suffered from a longterm illness?

    I have watched my grandfather die of altziemers and angina, the other died of lungcancer a very painful and unpleasant death. A close family friend also died of lung cancer but a rare form that only affects egyptologists due to their contact with mummified bodies. My brother suffered from severe damage to his digestive system that had no cause. The doctors operated and then said he would never be able to use his stomach again. Praise God that he was healed. Now both my cousins and myself have similar unexplained problems. I have been unable to leave my bed for nearly 2 years.

    Before I became sick I said that I understood what it was like to be ill. I didnt, that was pride. Vow is right you cannot, cannot know until you have either suffered yourself or have watched someone you love suffer.

    Would you like to explain to me why God has not healed me yet? Dont tell me I have not got enough faith. You only need faith the size of a mustard seed to move mountains! I have prayed for people before and God has healed them. People have prayed for me for other things and God has healed me. I went to get prayer for my condition and God healed my ear- I was partially deaf in one ear- instead. Why?!

    Why is it that every time I get prayed for I get worse not better? I knew someone who had kidney failure who got worse every time he was prayed for and the last time he died three days later. Like to explain that one?

    I am not asking for pity here. I am happy and I love my saviour. When you are done explaining what you think the answer is, I will give you mine.

    You can spout all the verses in the bible at me if you like, I have heard them all before. But take care, people who claim that all you need is faith, end up heaping guilt on suffering people instead of dealing with them with compassion. It makes their problems worse, they can attempt to walk into their healing only to get much worse because of the exertion. Ive done it, many times I believed that the prayer had worked and God had healed me only to end up in hospital because I had pushed myself too far. The guilt that I felt was horrible I believed it was my fault, I thought "I dont have enough faith!" That came from the enemy. Only he kicks people when they are already down. God picked me up and whispered in my ear "it is ok to be ill" I felt peace and love flood over me and I relaxed. It was only after that that I began to feel happy. before that I had been in the depths of dispair and depression, now I was at peace; sick; but at peace.

    Please dont think that I am having a go at anyone, I agree faith is important Jesus himself said so, but God does not work to our formulas and dictates, his will is greater than we can understand, when we read the bible we can be guilty of going, THATS the answer, and then sticking to it narrow mindedly when in actual fact God is greater than that and more complex. Things arent always black and white.
     
  9. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,164
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Hello friend,
    Thank your for your well thought out and reasonable post. I will try to respond with like reason and understanding.

    Of course I have. As a child I was sick constantly. As a small child (I am told) I actually died after a bout with bronchial pneumonia, and had to be rushed to the hospital to be was revived. I have watched close loved ones not only be sick but also die. I watched my mother die when I was yet 13 years old. I have a brother who is in a wheelchair as the result of a stroke. Having said that, let me reinforce the fact that none of this changes the fact that Jesus has taken our sickness. We are still healed by the stripes of Jesus.

    Allow me to take your question and expand it a bit for the sake of this discussion.
    Have you had any of your loved ones, friends, or aquantances pass into eternity without Christ?
    I have, and I am sure you have too. But my real question is this: does this change the truth of the Gospel one bit? Should we stop presenting the truth of the Word because loved ones miss it? As sad and regretable as the loss is... the truth remains the same. Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day for our justification.

    You said "you cannot, cannot know until you have (experienced it yourself)". I am not sure what you are saying I cannot know. I think you are saying I cannot know the difficulty a person would have believeing in the face of overwhelming problems. And I agree that unless one has experienced difficulty they cannot know the struggle it takes. But that is really not what I talking about in these posts. I am talking about taking a stand on the veracity of the Word . If the Word says the sky is actually green, then it really does not matter what our eyes and scientific devices say. We will just have to stop calling blue things blue and start calling them green. God does not lie and He always know what He is talking about.
    We can discuss if you like the translations and interpretations. But just because there is physical evidence that would appear to contradict what the Word says, that does not change the Word. I am saved when I do not feel saved. I am healed when I am in pain. God did not lie. If I have to choose between the Word of the God or physical evidence to the contrary... I have no choice but go with the Word.

    People sometimes have odd ideas about what it means to believe. Some confuse it with being "faithful." Which is important, that is not what we are talking about. Some think that if they concentrate real hard or if they memorize a bunch of scriptures; that this is beleiving. It is not. The first step toward believeing is simply to agree with what the Word of God says. Believeing the Word has less to do with your ability than it has to do with the integrity one talking.
    God is speaking.
    He does not lie.
    If He said you are healed.
    You are. Period.

    We have to take sides with the Word. Taking sides with God means taking sides with His Word. It means agreeing with the Word even when there is evidence to the contrary. It means believeing you have what you ask for when you pray ... and NOT waiting for something to happen before you believe(anyone can do that).

    The first thing you have to do is start to say the same thing as what the Word says. I am not talking about in your head... I am not talking about denying the physical symptoms. I am taking about what comes out of your heart. Whisper in your prayers to God how much you appreciate that He has healed you. Tell Him thank you for his love and care. Lift your hands and praise Him for healing you spirit, soul, and body. Speak His word back to Him. "Thank you lord for being the Lord that Healeth me, thank you for healing my infirmities, thank your for sending your Word that heals me. Thank you that your Word is always true. Thank you that I do not walk by sight, but I walk by the Word you gave us. Thank you that you do not lie. Thank you that whatsoever things I ask for believing, I receive. "


    I agree that guilt is worse than sickness. If not being healed causes you to feel guilty... lay it down and let it go. Healing is great, but peace of mind and spirit is more important. I would say to relax and continue to thank Him for His word. Stop trying to believe, and just thank Him that it is true. Let the integrity of God and His Word believe it for you. Let it carry you.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    lets use holbert's logic

    "24 Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
    "

    Okay, an alcoholic prays for more beer with all the faith he can muster. He doesn't get it. Proves you wrong.

    A drug addict prays for more crack. I promice you God won't give it to him no matter how big his faith. What you leave out is context. God will bless you if its good for you. Material wealth or getting healing isn't always what's good for you. so again I ask you....why was timothy sick all the time? Paul seems to think he has great faith?
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    if you think that you should be blessed materially I again ask you why did ALL of the disciples die poor?
     
  12. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,164
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Very good question Louis. And the answer is simpler than you might think.
    1. You are a new creature created in the image of the Father who created you. (Col 31:10, Eph 2:10)
    2. Your new spirit cannot sin. (Gal 5:16, 1Jn 3:9,1 Jn 5:18)
    3. Belief is of that same heart (spirit).(Rom 10:9-10, Gal 5:22)

    Hence, because your recreated spirit is godly and cannot sin, it cannot believe for evil things . A good tree does not put forth evil fruit. You cannot believe for drugs. I have consistantly said that you can receive anything that you can believe for... not anything you want . If your heart, which is created in the image of God, can believe for it... you can have it .

    Gal 5:
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love .

    The word for "worketh" here is energeo. Faith that is energized by love availeth much! Praise His Name!
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Hence, because your recreated spirit is godly and cannot sin, it cannot believe for evil things . "

    YOu forget that when you're a new creation your body can still be an interment of sin. I agree your sin nature is gone but your old inclatintions and habits are not. See romans for details. :)

    "Hence, because your recreated spirit is godly and cannot sin"

    This is wrong. Christians still do sin. They are just forgiven for it.

    So my question still stands. What's your answer?

    and you have still failed to provide an answer to the other question I posed.
     
  14. darkwoof

    darkwoof Member

    89
    +4
    Christian
    Single
    Sorry for not putting up scripture, but there's really too much to put up in this case. I beseech you to read the book of Job, as well as the Gospels.

    That done, we come to several conclusions:

    1) Christ healed those who came to him to edify the people and start the movement. While people of real faith will believe even in the lack of miracles, many were convinced only by what they see.

    2) Illness and suffering may be due to punishment from God, but sometimes it's simply tribulations we have to go through. Job was described as "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." And then, who can deny that afflictions strengthens the faithful?

    3) "Ask and you shall receive" is only true if it is according to the Will of God. If God meant for someone to suffer, for the strengthening of his spirit, then obviously he will not "recover" even if he wish. On the other hand, if it was a test of his faith, and upon being struck by an ailment, he blames not God, but glorifies Him *and* pray for recovery, God just might "answer his prayer".

    If you really think about it, God isn't doing what you want Him to do. He is doing his Will because you have pleased him by following his ways.

    Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    Bless You.
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    EXACTLY..great post dark.
     
  16. Amatire

    Amatire Member

    336
    +1
    Thankyou for your well thought out and compassionate response Hobart, It was a joy and a comfort to read. I agree I think with everything you said, and I think you have clarified an important point that had not yet been mentioned clearly. That is that there is a difference between accepting and striving to believe. Striving rarely ever helps, accepting with your heart brings peace no matter what the current experience is and even if it doesnt automatically result in an improvement in your situation. you are right, God's word is always true. if he says I am healed I know I am. But there is more to it than that.

    I am healed eternally, and some point in the future I will have the practical experience of that truth, but I am not well yet. God has promised that he will heal me, my sickness has already been dealt with on the cross, but there is one more major factor to touch on; and that it God's Timing.

    God has a perfect will and he has a perfect time, and the time for the practical outworking of my healing is not yet. It is soon and I know by faith that he has already done what is needed to heal me, but it has not happened yet. I know that God did not cause me to be ill, it is evil and it is never his heart for anyone to suffer sickness any more than it is his heart for people to sin, but I have found that the deepest lessons I have learnt about his grace and mercy have come from my sin and repentance, if I had not sinned I would never have understood his love to the same depth, Jesus himself said who would love more, the one who has sinned little of the one who has sinned much.

    It is the same with sickness. At the beginning of this severe bout of illness I had a vision. I saw a dark and horrible place filled with fire and smoke, and Jesus was standing beside me, he asked if I trusted him, I said yes, he asked if I wanted to move closer to him and get to know him on a deeper level, and of course I said yes. So he took my hand and he said "no matter what happens; dont let go, I wont let go of you, and trust me" we walked into the fire, and I said, "God this isnt right, getting to know you should be a light and beautiful experience and this is really dark and unpleasant!" all he said was "trust me, and you will come out of this deeper than you could even imagine". At the end of that week, I collapsed, I have hardly left my bed since, I have walked a path of darkness that I could never have envisioned before, and I have hit rock bottom.

    But you know what I found there? The rock is Christ, and there is no where left to fall. I have become dependant on Him because I do not have the strength mentally or phyisically to cope on my own. It is true for all of us, but it took suffering to open my eyes to it and burn away all the mundane dross that I was dependant on before, its an ongoing process, but I thank God that he is teaching me this.

    I know that there are other ways to learn this, that sickness is never his will, but I also know that he took a situation he foresaw -my lifestyle was leading my to disaster it was my own fault. - and he used it to His glory, so that good would triumph.

    There is another point I would like to make about timing, God is healing me, but more importantly he wants to make me whole. That means that at the moment he is dealing with the issues in my life that made me ill in the first place; pushing myself to succeed beyond what my body can cope with due to fear of failure. If he healed me physically without first dealing with what it is that urges me to drive myself this way, I would just make myself sick again. He does not want that. So I could believe in my healing and walk into it, but it is better for me to wait and allow him to move in my heart first, when he has completed that to a stage that satisfies him, I will be physically well again too. If I tried to walk into my healing by faith it would be driven by the self same desire to succeed which put me here in the first place! Faith is about trust and peace and love, not success. There are a lot of people who pray for healing in others who need to know that, then they would be far less dissapointed if a miracle does not take place exactly the way they imagined it.

    God's Will is perfect, and so is his timing!
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Where in the Bible does it say that Timothy was lacking faith?
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Thanks AMATIRE for that wonderful testimony. Yes, hold on and dont let go. And I'm so glad that you know by revelation that God does not only want to remove your physical sickness, but he wants you completely whole! I'm so glad that you can see that God is your loving Father/Daddy God and that sickness is not part of his plan for his children.

    I have a Word for you from the Lord. On several occasions, Jesus forgave before he even healed. This was so that the sick person could believe that he was good or clean enough to receive from God. Jesus knew that they needed to hear about forgiveness first, b4 they could believe and receive.

    I dont care what past sins you have done, as long as you have believed on Christ, you are perfectly righteous before God, washed whither than snow! Your past present and future sins have all been paid for by Jesus. so don't ever feel 'unworthy' to receive from him! Perhaps you already know this, but just want to reinforce it.

    Surely (not maybe) He has borne that disease of yours! Isa 53:4

    Shalom
     
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "Where in the Bible does it say that Timothy was lacking faith?"

    The Bible does not say that. But we assume that since he was sick frequently, he lacked faith in the area of healing. This is not the same as saying he was a faithless servant of God in a general sense. No one is saying that. But what some here are accusing us of saying.

    On the otherhand, I might argue that Tim knew better that being frequently sick was not God's plan for him. Common spiritual sense wld tell anyone that you cant serve God as well as you want to if you're sick half the time can you. So perhaps he was believing God for an answer to his problem; God used Paul who wrote to Tim: "Hey take some wine, dont drink only water". Tim got his answer or direction from God, was obedient and improved his health to the glory of God. I choose to speculate that then to speculate that Tim, after reading Paul's instruction for his illness, simply chuck it aside and ignored Paul -- and stayed sick.

    In fact, we who believe in healing (as God's will) sometimes get our healing thru practical wisdom. It's not always angels and miraculous instant healings. many a times its rest more, stop overdoing that, cut down on the caffeine, sugar etc.

    finally, the crux of the healing and prosperity debate is whether one can see that they are part of redemption. Once you can see that, there's no more argument. Otherwise, we can argue till Christ comes back!
     
  20. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Jesus forgave sins before healing, because it was the forgiveness of sins that was important! OTHER people wanted to see physical proof, an outward sign of the power of Jesus, so THAT is why He healed afflictions. He even said, "Which is more difficult to do?"

    If your sins are forgiven, what difference does it make if your physical ailments are healed or not? The forgiveness of sins is more important than anything!

    We do not live in a vacuum. GOD alone is the one who sees the Big Picture, and our suffering could create something wonderful that we cannot know. It is not ours to know; we won't understand everything until the End.

    A person suffering illness while experiencing the joy of knowing God can be a witness to doctors, nurses, hospital workers, people on the street.... the suffering could have a ministry ordained by God.

    Again, I say, suffering SANCTIFIES. Like everything else in our life, good, bad, wealth, poverty, whatever we have, it is our duty as Christians to turn it all over to God for His use, to glorify Him.

    I really have a problem with people proclaiming the message that total healing and relief from poverty are all available if you only have complete faith in God. You are needlessly condemning those who may be babies in faith, who will feel neglected if they cannot experience this total transformation you have guaranteed. How awful! How many will TURN AWAY from God, because they feel they simply cannot be worthy of this magic you are promising?

    God's time, and God's ways, are not known to us. How less stressful and demeaning it is, if you simply say, "Jesus, here I am. Do whatever You wish with me. If poverty, if suffering is my purpose in life, then so be it. I will attain all the riches and glory in Heaven with you. And that is all the reward I need."



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...