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Health and the Gospel

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LouisBooth, Jun 20, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    I still want to know why timothy was always sick..was he not faithful enough?

    no one who believes in this name it claim it (in my opinion) false docterine can answer me that.
     
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  2. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Well I am not a "name it claim it" (whatever that is).
    But the answer is yes. He (like many people in his day and ours) did not have the faith needed to accomplish what he needed. That is not an insult. It is not a put down. It is just an honest appraisal of the situation. Jesus said we could and would have whatsoever we said and believed. Are you going to believe the words of Jesus or the experience of Timothy? Timothy did not accomplish what Jesus said. Most of us do not. But that does not mean we should just throw up our hands and deny the word of God. Jesus still said what He said and that does not change just because we fail.
    BTW,I would be very careful saying that Jesus teaches false doctrine.
    Mar 11:
    23 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he saith cometh to pass; he shall have it.
    24 Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
     
  3. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    The logic is sound. the will of God concerning some things is in fact universal. It is not His will that anyone perish. It is His will that heaven be established on the earth in our lives. (I assume you know the Lords prayer).


    You need to read your bible. Read Deuteronomy 28. All blessings recorded in the Bible and even those which are not belong to us because of the work of Jesus. He did not leave one out.


    So that means we should be sick? What???

    "Doubtful" is right!
    Again, you need to become as well versed in the Bible as you are in "The Hiding Place". Jesus in fact did heal everyone who came to Him in faith . The only recorded instance where He could do no mighty work was when people did not believe.

    Mar 6:
    5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
    6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages teaching.


    I imagine He still marvels at the extent people will go to justify and keep their illnesses.

    Once again... when some people cannot deal with solid arguments they resort to name calling and put downs. That is OK... people want to see God in their lives so they construct all sorts of images to put Him there. I forgive you!
    Want some good news?? You can have the love of God in your life and be healthy too! He is not asking you to choose between one or the other. Praise His Name!
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Hobart:

    Well, I say you should thank God that you have never had anyone in your life with disabilities. I really have a problem with the understanding that if you supposedly believe in the promises of Jesus, you'll automatically be healed. A mortal's suffering doesn't replace anything done by the Cross, and I never made the connection between the two. I said suffering SANCTIFIES. A person of God who is suffering from an affliction uses the physical pain to drown out the distractions of the world, and can focus more completely, more purely upon God. Read the lives of some of the saints. Understand what martyrs have endured to say the name of God. People have died tortuous deaths to keep their freedom of worship. Yes, indeed, the Cross has splinters. Jesus didn't promise us it would be easy to follow Him. He will HELP, certainly, but He said we would suffer for His name's sake.

    If you have been a member of this forum for any length of time, you'll know Green Eyed Lady. This woman just recently lost a child, a baby, to an accidental strangulation death. Certainly, that poor baby suffered! And the agony that family has endured is beyond comprehension. Yet her most recent post, SHE PRAISES GOD, because some people came to know Christ at the funeral for her daughter. I'd say she is a prime example of how suffering can sanctify!

    Life is lethal. No matter what we attain in this world, we cannot take it into the next. What difference does it make if you attain success, if we are surrounded by riches, if we have all our physical needs met? It will all burn away. The more you have, the longer it will take to remove everything, so you can see God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  5. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Hello vow.
    I do thank God for that. But even if I and all my family were disabled, that would not change one letter of what Jesus said. He still has already healed us all, and that will never change regardless of how I feel or the condition of my body. He did not lie, and I do not want to take sides with circumstances against Him.

    I understand. It becomes clear once you see that He has already done it. He is not sitting up in heaven deciding who will be healed. It was decided at the cross, completed at the cross, and finished at the cross.

    I realize you did not make the connection. Most do not until someone points it out to them. Look at what Paul wrote about sanctification:

    Co 1:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification , and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord .

    Jesus is our sanctification. Any spiritual development we make is made in Christ. Faith in the work or Christ and the spirit He has birthed into us. Any attempt to put sanctification over into the area of our works or suffering is an attempt to "glory in the flesh."

    I am sorry… but this is just not the NT, gospel, redemptive-work-of-Christ way of doing things. Where is Christ in this effort you describe? It just seems to me to be another fleshy effort to bring ones self to God outside of His gospel way of grace through faith. Jesus, not our dead work efforts, is the author and finisher of our faith. My suffering does not bring me to God… His does.

    I agree. People have suffered persecution, name calling, slander, and much worse for the word of God and the Gospel. People are persecuted for the words sake. When we push the word rather than experience and tradition the world and the religious crowd really come down on us. But we have to stand with Jesus and the word even if they hate us, lie about us, misrepresent us, and worse. And we must love then anyway though it all! But persecution and sickness are not the same. He has already healed us and we have no choice but to stand by that word.

    It is almost inevitable that when we present the word of God about healing that someone will bring up a loved one, or a friend, or a child, who has died or suffered some sad fate. That fate, while tragic and sad, does not change the word of God. It still says what it says. We cannot change it because our experience does not match it. It is still the word of God. And it is also inevitable that the moment we suggest that it was not the will of God that the loved one suffer the said fate, that suddenly we become the bad guys for it. I have seen this happen again and again. And even tho it is not I who was so callous as to bring such a sad incident into a public discussion, it is inevitable that I will be made out to be the bad guy because I stand up for the word of God and proclaim the gospel in as loving a way as I can. So let me say it. It is not now, nor has it ever been the perfect will of God to attempt to achieve his purposes by killing, stealing, or destroying. Can He turn the work of the devil around and use it to His good? Of course. But healing, health, and blessing will always be the best and perfect way in which God accomplishes His will in our lives and the lives of those around us. It is always better for a child to live rather than die. God never never never kills a child to accomplish anything. It is always better that a person walk rather than be in a wheel chair. God is not so impotent that He has to utilize these sad methods to accomplish His will. Having said that, let me repeat that it was not I who introduced the tragic event mentioned above. I would not have done that. But once done, I have no choice but to stand up for the Word, for God, and for the suffering of my Lord. I will not deny, slight, or minimize the suffering my Lord endured on the cross just so someone can feel good about a tragic event, or so someone else can win points in an online debate.


    That is easy to say until you are homeless or your children are hungry. Never does God or Jesus say that we have to choose between the two. He fully expects His children to be saved in every aspect of their being. He never asks you to choose. Of course you should not love the things of this world. We are not saying you should. That is just another straw man argument where no one is taking the contrary position. But it is empty religion and somewhat disingenuous to say you do not care about being healthy and having your needs met.


    Nowhere does it say that having things will prevent you from ‘seeing God’. We see God, not because of the existence or absence of ‘things’ , but solely because of the work of Jesus in redemption. He brought us to the place where we can see God, be with God, and fellowship with God. A pauper or a King both can see and fellowship with God the same. The pauper is no better off than the King because both of their relationships with God are based, not one the ‘things’ that surround them, but on the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

    Jesus is everything. HE did it. He is the one. He saved us. He is the Lord that heals us. He is our sanctification, our redemption, and the author and finisher of our faith. If Jesus is not the certer, be all and end all of your faith, then you are off course and trying to work you own way. Jesus is the way!
     
  6. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Jesus died for our sins, to give us life, not riches and perfect health. Physical death is inevitable for everyone. God does not heal everyone. He didn't heal Paul and He didn't heal Timothy. Does anyone suppose they were lacking in faith? I find it strange that the majority of verses used to support health and wealth is from the OT, when many of these were promises made to Israel. Jesus promised that we would never die spiritually and that is the gospel. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, not our physical health. People could not go to heaven in the OT because Jesus had yet to die, yet there are many cases of healing. God heals and blesses materialistically according to His purposes, not our wants and desires. We are promised that God will provide, not make us wealthy and healthy. Just like not all speak in tongues, not all are healthy and wealthy. If anyone actually thinks the faith of a person and their standing before God, is reflected by their clean bill of health and/or their large bank account, I think that is truly a shame.
     
  7. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    God is more concerned with our spiritual state then our physical state. Unless we go in the rapture, our physical bodies as they are now, are going to decompose, so healing is simply prolonging the inevitable. What about Christians who have died in accidents, was it because they lacked faith?
     
  8. GTX

    GTX <font size=1><font color=gray><b>Rapid Transit Aut

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    Very well put Mandy! Those were truly words of wisdom.

    /me agrees completely and gives Mandy a big high 5!

    /me also gives Louis a big high 5!
     
  9. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Hobart:

    Until you or one of your loved ones has suffered a disability, your vision is clouded. Homelessness or hunger can be remedied by HARD WORK, as long as the individual is whole. You may not LIKE the work, and you may not achieve the home or the food you desire, but if your back is strong, and your will is not broken, you can work.

    A disability limits you, albeit some are less-limited than others. But until you know the frustration of trying to deal with a disability, and the oftentimes insensitivities of the people around you to your limitations, you can't understand it.

    But don't presume to tell me I am not understanding Scripture because I don't interpret it the way you do. Don't EVEN go there.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  10. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Well I thought people were in the dark until they were enlightened by the Spirit and the Word... but, enough said. I have learned down through the years that once someone starts forcing a discussion toward their personal life and feelings, then nothing is accomplished. So we can just leave it at that and praise the Lord for His salavation!

    I went back and reviewed my posts to make sure I had not tried to tell you anything you might not understand(even tho we are, after all, on a discussion board designed for the purpose of sharing and debate). I am confident that I have not done so(at least not successfully anyway), and will be sure not to try and tell you anything in the future. If at any time you get the feeling that I am trying to tell you something that you already already understand, please let me know and I will attempt to not do so. I will not "EVEN go there" :scratch:
    (Althought that kind of completely destroys the discussion and the whole "forum" concept... dosn't it?) :confused:

    Oh well...
    Lord bless ya!
     
  11. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I like where Peter quoted Isaiah 53:

    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Here we see Jesus suffering and baring in His body, not only our sins, but also our sickness. Some try and say that this refers to “spiritual healing’ (whatever that is… sound new age to me). Yet Matt 7:18 also quotes the same chapter verses and specifically says that it refers to healing.

    Mat 8:
    16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

    Even that foe will be vanquished one day!

    Only because they do not believe. It is His will that we all live in perfect health. That is a scriptural fact. That not all attain to that ideal is self evident. But it is faulty reasoning to say “since everyone is not healed, therefore God does not heal all”.

    Paul was only without sight for three days:
    Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight , and neither did eat nor drink.

    And he was in fact healed:
    Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
    Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith , and arose, and was baptized.

    We know the scriptures say that we have been healed by the stripes of Jesus. We also know that we receive whatsoever we ask in Jesus Name. James said:

    Jam 5:
    14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    Why Tim did not receive the healing promised him is mere speculation. It is clear that it was and is the will of God that we live in health. It is not good teaching to take the experiences of ourselves and others and try to define the will and nature of God by them. We are to walk by faith not by sight. Walking by faith means to walk by what the Word says, not by what we see, feel. or experience.

    I would rather suppose that than to call God a liar. Why is it so hard to believe that people in the Bible might have failed? Every apostle, prophet, and King failed many times… including Paul and Timothy. Just because they failed to receive the blessings of God is no indicator that this was the will of God toward them or toward us. Peter denied Christ... does that mean we should? Moses murdered a man, should we? Judas betrayed Christ, should we take that to mean that this is the will of God for us also? I hope not! Yes, people in the Bible lacked faith sometimes; and failed more often than they were successful. But that does not change the will or Word of God. He always remains the same and always only sends good gifts from heaven.

    Jam 1:
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    This is indeed an odd argument. Galatians Gal 3:13 says:
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Go back and read what the curse of the law is in Deut 28. It includes every sickness that exists. If Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law(and He did), then we are redeemed from all sickness! Praise Him! We have been made recipients of the blessings of the OT. That is one of the reasons He hung on that tree. We need to be careful not to slight or make light of the suffering our Lord endured on our behalf. When we make light of it, or count it as nothing, then we fail to partake of the benefits of it.

    Amen! And Praise His name for it!!! Is that not wonderful!!

    Amen! So true. So lets look at the purposes of God:

    3Jo 1:
    2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. That is a very strong indication of the will and purpose of God!

    Psalms 35:
    27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
    That is a good one too!I like the way darby renders it:

    (Darby) Let them exult and rejoice that delight in my righteousness; and let them say continually, Jehovah be magnified, who delighteth in the prosperity of his servant.

    He delights in blessing us!

    Here is a very strong indicator that it is the will of God that we receive what we pray and believe for:

    Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

    Again:

    Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    I like the 'how much more principle' of God! God wants us to have good things! (Who am I to thwart His will???)

    Psa 84:
    11 For Jehovah God is a sun and a shield: Jehovah will give grace and glory; No good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

    I would not want to be the one who said God withheld good things from us!

    And this:

    Mat 6:
    32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
    33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    ALL these things shall be added. Nice.

    And this one!!!
    Mar 10:
    29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel's sake,
    30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    That one is hard to refute…

    This is one of my favorites:

    Joh 14:
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.

    Whatsoever is a big word! He said [GLOW=orange]"I Will Do!"[/GLOW]
    He blesses us so that the Father be glorified in the Son.

    That is a mighty good purpose!

    I think the most powerful indicator of the will of God is in the Lords Prayer:

    Mat 6:
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth

    Jesus wants us to pray that the will of God in heaven be done on the earth also. Do you think there is any sickness or poverty in heaven? I do not.

    I could go on and on. And will if need be.


    We are told that God has already provided.

    2Pe 1:
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


    I cannot think of a single thing that is not covered by the phase "life and godliness". Health certainly pertains to life. A home pertains to life. Food, clothing, and water pertain to life. Try living without any of these things? You will not last long... at least not in upstate NY. All we need to do is believe the Word. His will has already been established. His provision has already been made. We just have to believe and stop taking sides against His word.

    A little off topic.. but all can and should speak in tongues. It is a sign that follows all believers.

    All could be healthy and have all their needs met according to the provision that God has made. That they do not is self evident. But you have to believe what He said.

    I do to. That is sad. It is also a straw man argument in that no one I know believes this. If you find someone, I will join you in helping them see the light. Our standing before God was established by the death, burial, and ressurection of our Lord Jesus. Amen!!!

    Hobie
     
  12. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    By His stripes we are healed spiritually, not physically, which is obvious because Jesus healed people before he was crucified and people were healed in the OT as well.
     
  13. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Why is it I am the only one quoting any scripture??? :help: :scratch: :confused:
    Maybe we should rename the board [GLOW=skyblue]"General Theory-ology"[/GLOW]
    :rolleyes:

    just kidding... ;)
     
  14. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    What things did Jesus say would be added to us if we seek first the kingdom? Riches? perfect health? No.
    No where in the Bible are we promised perfect health and material riches!! Obviously not all Christians are rich or wealthy and certainly all are not healthy? Do you honestly believe that is because those Christians are lacking faith?
     
  15. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I suppose you could discuss it with Matthew who said it refered to physical healing in Matt 8:17...

    Mat 8:
    16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick :
    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


    ;)
     
  16. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Also, we are still bound to our flesh and our flesh has yet to be redeemed and is just as surely as we will all experience death and pain, we all will suffer some sort of health problems, whether they be heart problems, the flu, cancer, the list goes on and on.
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Again you are taking this completely out of context. How could it be by His stripes, when Jesus went around healing people because of His compassion and to show who He was? This quote in Matthew is not referring to Jesus' crucifixion as to how we are healed. Jesus died for our sins, not our sicknesses.
     
  18. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Spiritual healing is simply having our sins forgiven and being becoming born again.
     
  19. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Please refer to my previous post where a dozen or so scriptures are listed... (just for starters). (BTW I have not used the words "material riches"... I am not sure who you are directing this toward. I have consistantly used the phrase "needs met".) Maybe you are talking to that straw man that has been frequenting the discussion. ;)

    Again... the previous post. More than promised... given . The promises have been made good in Jesus.



    Not all people are saved either... but that is not an indicator of what the will of God is concerning them. That all people have not secured the salvation that God has already provided does not mean that God has not done it. He has. He did it a couple thousand years ago.



    Again... I am not sure if you are talking to me, I have consistantly said "you have to believe". But it is true that everybody is at a different level of faith. Jesus and Paul both spoke in terms of different levels of faith.
    Anyone on this board feel like they could not grow in faith a little? Anyone feel like they are at the max of what they could and should be? I know I could grow in faith! How 'bout you? :confused:
     
  20. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Well, like I said before... maybe you will have to take it up with Matthew when we get to heaven. I did not write the book of Matthew. I am not the one who used this passage. The passage is a quote from Is 53...

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    This is univerally accepted as a picture of Jesus in His passion. Peter locked it in by quoting verse 5. Matthew links healing into it by quoting verse 4.

    That is true also... and He continues to do so today. He does not change. The gospel of the Kingdom is still being preached today. He is still healing. He is still having compassion just as He did then. He is still alive. There are still signs following those that believe.

    What can I say... take it up with Matthew. He put the quote from Isa there... not me.

    Gal 3 says that Jesus became a curse for us and redeemed us from the curse of the law:

    Gal 3:
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    The curse of the law is listed in Deut 28. It includes all sickness and disease. We are redeemed from all sickness and disease based on this redemption fact.

    People who fail to discern the Lords' body... that is those who fail to see the significance of His suffering in the flesh prior to His death, also fail to have faith for healing.

    1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


    When we see the reason Jesus suffered in body, then we see that His physical suffering was to the end that we would not be "weak...sickly.... and sleep (die before their time)"
     
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