You are free to perceive as you like. What is the value of bantering with you in the Scriptures? I am sure you have already know all the arguments, yet you choose to disbelieve.
But as I've pointed out, I don't hold the view that God doesn't miraculously heal, only that He doesn't do so at every turn - certainly not to the degree that would warrant calling healing a "mainstay" of Christianity. Scripture clearly bears this out.
So, the Holy Spirit is a Person in the Godhead, correct?
Yup.
The Holy Spirit came here with gifts.
Uh huh.
If the Holy Spirit is still present today, why would He no longer have those gifts?
It isn't that He no longer possesses certain gifts but that the gifts you want to make a "mainstay" of Christian living aren't as important now as they were at the establishing of the Early Church. Certainly, miraculous healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy - these are not
essential to Christian living as many modern hyper-Charismatics want everyone to believe.
If they were only for during the Apostles, why were Philip's daughters called prophetesses?
I don't think I've ever claimed that miraculous gifts were
only exercised by the apostles.
Why all the discussion in the Scriptures on the gifts?
I think the "why" is explained very clearly in Scripture:
Ephesians 4:11-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Did the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture, not realize that His gifts were going to be null and void by the time the Epistles were published into the Book that some claim is the "perfect thing that is to come."
Who has said anything about spiritual gifts becoming null and void? I didn't.
But, if we expect the gifts are still active today, we study what that means and we realize that not everyone is given the gift of healing.
Exactly. So, how, then, is it a "mainstay" of Christianity?
But, according to James, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
Yes, and?
He, then, compares us to Elijah and describes how Elijah's prayer stopped the rain and started it back again.
I think this was more an example of the power our prayers have with God
when they emanate from a righteous life than of James indicating Christians can control the weather.
And, we are told to "confess our faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you might be healed". It seems like James wouldn't agree with your take on the rarity of healing.
I don't recall James stipulating
physical healing. He seems to be thinking of
spiritual healing, actually; for he goes on to write:
James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
It doesn't look to me like James would have any issue at all with my stance on miraculous healing.
Paul certainly wouldn't either since he is instructing people to "covet the best gifts" and "desire spiritual gifts" not to mention the amount of time he spent talking about the gifts and how they should be used.
And what are those "best gifts"? The ones he names first.
1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Healing comes in fifth in this list. And tongues dead last. How, then, have they become so prominent in the thinking of so many modern Christians? I suspect because they are at once both sensational and easily faked.
Why would He have His immediate followers do the works? Whatever your reason, why would that be any less important today?
Because they were responsible for establishing the Early Church and serving as the leaders of it. Divine power would be necessary to fulfilling both things. The Church is now well-established as is the canon of Scripture. There is not the same need today for the sorts of miraculous deeds that helped found the Church and certified as Scripture the writing of men like Paul, Peter, James and John.
So, if Jesus says those who believe will do these things, and you don't do these things, then how can you say you believe (by Jesus' definition)?
I both preach and teach - two of the spiritual gifts Paul names. I make disciples and have done for over twenty years. How about you? I recall, too, that Paul says that not all believers will manifest the same gifts which your question seems to ignore.
You claim that I'm making "doctrinal mountains out of molehills"; but the reality is the people claiming the gifts have stopped have built false mountains that prevent ignorant followers from seeing the Truth.
Oh? If they can make their case well from Scripture, I don't see that your accusation here holds water. In any case, I'm not one who says that miraculous healing has ceased, only that it is relatively rare.
Belief that requires little supernatural involvement from God doesn't require much faith and is often very shallow.
Oh, good grief! Brother, it takes far more faith to wait on God to change a life, to bring a person free of the grip of Self and sin, than it does to believe God for healing. God does a far greater miracle transforming a wicked human heart than He ever does restoring someone to physical health.
Since, I was one of those ignorant blind followers, I care for those who are still bound by the lie.
Your unpleasant insinuations in this thread give me cause to doubt you here.
Maybe we would see a lot more healing and deliverance....Maybe the church today would look a lot less impotent,
I don't know what church you attend, but in the church in which I'm a member, I have the privilege of watching God transform lives constantly. I'm watching Him shape former drug addicts, sex addicts, alcoholics, and such like into Christ-like people all the time! Forget the physical stuff. The real potent works of God are in eternal spiritual areas - in a person's character, thinking, and heart.
Maybe the church today would look a lot less impotent, if we didn't allow people to pigeonhole the real Truth as just a little molehill that we shouldn't make a big deal about.
Maybe the Church today wouldn't look so sensual, so juvenile, so carnal if it weren't chasing after sensational, external demonstrations of God's power, encouraged in doing so by carnal believers who have yet to understand that a changed heart is a far greater miracle than any physical healing God might do.
