Healing of the Great Schism ...

[archer75]

Prohibiting recordings while speaking would be a very intelligent thing for any religious figure to do, at least at certain times.

Ok, so we just believe anything reported.

 

[nicholas123]

This just in: CF purchased by Elvis as wedding gift for three-headed squirrel! Sound impossible? It was just announced at a press conference. But no recordings were permitted.

If you'd spend more time talking with regular folk outside the internet, you'd realize people who see the differences between the Orthodox and the roman catholics are a loud minority. Most people don't even wish to care about differences in spirituality, they see the church as a gigantic NGO with some words of affirmation. To them, bishops are the church such that their meeting means the churches, as a whole, are meeting. The foolish nonsense they believe is more absurd than a four-headed squirrel.
If only you knew how bad things really are.

 

[archer75]

If you'd spend more time talking with regular folk outside the internet, you'd realize people who see the differences between the Orthodox and the roman catholics are a loud minority. Most people don't even wish to care about differences in spirituality, they see the church as a gigantic NGO with some words of affirmation. To them, bishops are the church such that their meeting means the churches, as a whole, are meeting. The foolish nonsense they believe is more absurd than a four-headed squirrel.
If only you knew how bad things really are.

What you said in bold I agree with. But still, no EO hierarch would say this.

I'm not sure what you meant at the end there.

 

[Not David]

If you'd spend more time talking with regular folk outside the internet, you'd realize people who see the differences between the Orthodox and the roman catholics are a loud minority. Most people don't even wish to care about differences in spirituality, they see the church as a gigantic NGO with some words of affirmation. To them, bishops are the church such that their meeting means the churches, as a whole, are meeting. The foolish nonsense they believe is more absurd than a four-headed squirrel.
If only you knew how bad things really are.

I didn't know that about Orthodox. What I knew is that Catholics act condescending about Orthodox dogmas and just want "unity" because legal sacraments, Apostolic sucession, etc.

 

[prodromos]

We know exactly what HAH said in 1997 in his address to Georgetown University.
ADDRESS OF HIS ALL HOLINESS ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH B A R T H O L O M E W PHOS HILARON "JOYFUL LIGHT" GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY WASHINGTON, DC - October 21, 1997 - Homily - The Ecumenical Patriarchate

In the distant past, great attempts have been made by both sides to prove, and motivated by a different spirit, each side has judged the other as being divergent from the true faith.

This deeply rooted conviction of our divergence has led us to a thousand years of separate and autonomous courses. We confirm not with unexpected astonishment, but neither with indifference, that indeed the divergence between us continually increases and the end point to which our courses are taking us, foreseeably, are indeed different.
Our heart is opposed to the specter of an everlasting separation. Our heart requires that we seek again our common foundations, and the original starting point that we share. So that, retrospectively we can discover the point and the reasons for our divergence that led to separate courses, and be able, by lifting blame, to proceed thereafter on the same road leading to the same common goal.

Assuredly our problem is neither geographical nor one of personal alienation. Neither is it a problem of organizational structures, nor jurisdictional arrangements. Neither is it a problem of external submission, nor absorption of individuals and groups. It is something deeper and more substantive.

The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different. Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible.

No one ignores the fact that the model for all of us is the person of the Theanthropos (God-Man) Jesus Christ. But which model? No one ignores the fact that the incorporation in Him is achieved within His body, the Church. But whose church?​

 

[Phronema]

If you'd spend more time talking with regular folk outside the internet, you'd realize people who see the differences between the Orthodox and the roman catholics are a loud minority. Most people don't even wish to care about differences in spirituality, they see the church as a gigantic NGO with some words of affirmation. To them, bishops are the church such that their meeting means the churches, as a whole, are meeting. The foolish nonsense they believe is more absurd than a four-headed squirrel.
If only you knew how bad things really are.

I strongly disagree with you here. This is very much a sky is falling mentality, and having talked with the parishioners at my and other Orthodox churches I'd say that people are well aware of the differences between the RCC, and Orthodox church and don't agree with those differences.

Your statement makes it sound like the average Orthodox parishioner is regularly communing at RCC churches, and that's just not true.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I strongly disagree with you here. This is very much a sky is falling mentality, and having talked with the parishioners at my and other Orthodox churches I'd say that people are well aware of the differences between the RCC, and Orthodox church and don't agree with those differences.

Your statement makes it sound like the average Orthodox parishioner is regularly communing at RCC churches, and that's just not true.

Not to jump into the middle of this argue, but it's an experience in which I do share. Most people dont care particularly about theology, I'm stating that as a fact.
They do what they've been told to do, but understand very little of the reasoning behind it.

Often times people tend to hyperdox, be ultra polish and so forth out of reasons foreign to theology. Its ethnocentrism and tribalism, not piety.

I wish I could agree with you that most laymen really do care about theology, but I'm not.

 

[Not David]

Not to jump into the middle of this argue, but it's an experience in which I do share. Most people dont care particularly about theology, I'm stating that as a fact.
They do what they've been told to do, but understand very little of the reasoning behind it.

Often times people tend to hyperdox, be ultra polish and so forth out of reasons foreign to theology. Its ethnocentrism and tribalism, not piety.

I wish I could agree with you that most laymen really do care about theology, but I'm not.

Norway and USA have difference experiences.

 

[archer75]

I strongly disagree with you here. This is very much a sky is falling mentality, and having talked with the parishioners at my and other Orthodox churches I'd say that people are well aware of the differences between the RCC, and Orthodox church and don't agree with those differences.

Your statement makes it sound like the average Orthodox parishioner is regularly communing at RCC churches, and that's just not true.

@Phronema, you're also right here, in my experience. The way I took what @nicholas123 said (maybe I was wrong) was: the majority of nominally RC or EO people in the world could give no coherent account of theological or practical differences, and it seems to me that's true.

I think the convert-heavy parishes you and I know are not representative of laypeople throughout the world.

Example: Romanian woman (wonderful person, very active in parish, sings in choir, teaches little kids) from my old parish asked about my background. On hearing it, asked me about Roman Catholic "differences.". I said (unsure what to say) " well, you know, theological differences, they have a different Creed..." "It's different?" "Yeah, they say that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son..." She was genuinely surprised. As if she was hearing this for the first time. Now, some people might have guessed "wow, she's from this Orthodox country, sings, she must know this basic stuff.". But she didn't.

Similarly, as I've said, I have met Russian people who consider themselves Orthodox but have not been baptized. They're not aware of baptism as a sacrament. They think it's a kind of " good luck" ceremony available to babies. At least one of these people communes on Pascha.

None of this is to say anything bad about people. Simply that the internet Orthodoxy / Christian enthusiast talk we have around here, whether from savvy EO, OO, RC, AC people, is just not the norm in my experience.

 

[dzheremi]

Simply that the internet Orthodoxy / Christian enthusiast talk we have around here, whether from savvy EO, OO, RC, AC people, is just not the norm in my experience.

That is very true. I once had to explain to a friend from church what Chalcedon was. Not a young, westernized guy, either, but a guy in his 50s who had grown up in Egypt. It was pretty baffling at the time, but in the years since then I have found that it is not as uncommon as you might assume if you already know all this stuff. Most people who are not Christianity enthusiasts seem to know what they are doing and why, not what other people do or don't do and why.

 

[archer75]

Most people who are not Christianity enthusiasts seem to know what they are doing and why, not what other people do or don't do and why.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but also...some of us don't have a great idea of what WE do and why...

 

[Rusviking876]

I decided on a positive approach for a thread title instead of titling it after this article.

Discussion?

Report: Patriarch Bartholomew Says Reunion with Catholic Church Is "Inevitable" | uCatholic

EP’s priorities are ecumenical and heterodox. Linking up with schismatic heretics is preposterous.

The way to heal the Great Schism is to convert the Roman Catholics gradually back to Orthodoxy. Some see this as “stealing others’ flocks” but no, missionary work actually is the merciful route.

 

[Phronema]

@Phronema, you're also right here, in my experience. The way I took what @nicholas123 said (maybe I was wrong) was: the majority of nominally RC or EO people in the world could give no coherent account of theological or practical differences, and it seems to me that's true.

I think the convert-heavy parishes you and I know are not representative of laypeople throughout the world.

Example: Romanian woman (wonderful person, very active in parish, sings in choir, teaches little kids) from my old parish asked about my background. On hearing it, asked me about Roman Catholic "differences.". I said (unsure what to say) " well, you know, theological differences, they have a different Creed..." "It's different?" "Yeah, they say that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son..." She was genuinely surprised. As if she was hearing this for the first time. Now, some people might have guessed "wow, she's from this Orthodox country, sings, she must know this basic stuff.". But she didn't.

Similarly, as I've said, I have met Russian people who consider themselves Orthodox but have not been baptized. They're not aware of baptism as a sacrament. They think it's a kind of " good luck" ceremony available to babies. At least one of these people communes on Pascha.

None of this is to say anything bad about people. Simply that the internet Orthodoxy / Christian enthusiast talk we have around here, whether from savvy EO, OO, RC, AC people, is just not the norm in my experience.

Well, perhaps it is that I've attended parishes that are majority converts considering I'm in the southeastern US, and that contributes to my experience being the way it has been. That said in my experience people have mostly been aware of the differences, though maybe not all of them, or every nuance of each one.

I'd still posit that simply because some folks are poorly catechized, if catechized at all it certainly doesn't mean that they're ready to jump on board the ecumenism train. On that note I don't think HAH Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is either, nor the 3 abbots from Mt. Athos. I find it awfully strange that no recordings were allowed at this meeting.

Also @nicholas123 , I didn't mean to come off as argumentative, or aggressive though I can see how my post may have come across that way, so please forgive me if it did, my apologies.

 

[E.C.]

I think the convert-heavy parishes you and I know are not representative of laypeople throughout the world.

Example: Romanian woman (wonderful person, very active in parish, sings in choir, teaches little kids) from my old parish asked about my background. On hearing it, asked me about Roman Catholic "differences.". I said (unsure what to say) " well, you know, theological differences, they have a different Creed..." "It's different?" "Yeah, they say that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son..." She was genuinely surprised. As if she was hearing this for the first time. Now, some people might have guessed "wow, she's from this Orthodox country, sings, she must know this basic stuff.". But she didn't.

Similarly, as I've said, I have met Russian people who consider themselves Orthodox but have not been baptized. They're not aware of baptism as a sacrament. They think it's a kind of " good luck" ceremony available to babies. At least one of these people communes on Pascha.

None of this is to say anything bad about people. Simply that the internet Orthodoxy / Christian enthusiast talk we have around here, whether from savvy EO, OO, RC, AC people, is just not the norm in my experience.

For people from Eastern Europe, specifically, there was about fifty to seventy years of oppressive Communist rule where religious education was non-existent. It fell on the parents to educate. Before that, religious education took place in the schools, like in Russia, Greece and others. So, for a while there the Church was a bit too focused on basic survival to really spend enough time on education. The other thing is that for many people before the World Wars, life was limited to them and the surrounding villages. People didn't move around like they do now, so for most of the general populace there wouldn't be a lot of exposure to other people who weren't like you.

In the USA, most non-Orthodox churches have a Sunday School to teach religious education because there is no religious education in this country other than private schools. That's part of why Orthodox parishes have adopted/are adopting Sunday Schools themselves in the last few decades here in the States. Even during the Cold War there wasn't much religious education at church in the USA because the Church didn't yet realize that there's no religious education going on in school. We need it here. We're a 1% minority in this country and we need to know who we are so when people ask "what's Orthodoxy?" we can answer them.

 

[nicholas123]

I strongly disagree with you here. This is very much a sky is falling mentality, and having talked with the parishioners at my and other Orthodox churches I'd say that people are well aware of the differences between the RCC, and Orthodox church and don't agree with those differences.

No, the sky is not falling. Sometimes I wish it did already, maybe one can sympathize, because it shall slowly go down for centuries until heaven comes down for new creation. There will come a time there will not be two or three to celebrate the Lord. It is a sober view, in my opinion, yet one can't stare into it too much.

Also @nicholas123 , I didn't mean to come off as argumentative, or aggressive though I can see how my post may have come across that way, so please forgive me if it did, my apologies.

It was a moment of weakness of mine, your argumentation was well-received.

 

[archer75]

For people from Eastern Europe, specifically, there was about fifty to seventy years of oppressive Communist rule where religious education was non-existent. It fell on the parents to educate. Before that, religious education took place in the schools, like in Russia, Greece and others. So, for a while there the Church was a bit too focused on basic survival to really spend enough time on education. The other thing is that for many people before the World Wars, life was limited to them and the surrounding villages. People didn't move around like they do now, so for most of the general populace there wouldn't be a lot of exposure to other people who weren't like you.

In the USA, most non-Orthodox churches have a Sunday School to teach religious education because there is no religious education in this country other than private schools. That's part of why Orthodox parishes have adopted/are adopting Sunday Schools themselves in the last few decades here in the States. Even during the Cold War there wasn't much religious education at church in the USA because the Church didn't yet realize that there's no religious education going on in school. We need it here. We're a 1% minority in this country and we need to know who we are so when people ask "what's Orthodoxy?" we can answer them.

Your reply offers causes for some of what I said, but I didn't say there were no causes. I just said that it is so.

And persecution isn't the only cause.

How many Anglicans know who Richard Hooker was? Or anything substantive about him? Fairly small percentage, I bet.

How many Roman Catholics could give a clear account of RC teaching on grace?

How many EO can explain why the faithful (and anyone else present) get censed? Or what "hypostatic union" means?

This is out of all baptized / confirmed people. Not the folks on CF or a similar forum.

And my saying this is an attack on exactly no one.

 

[Basil the Great]

Rather than a full and complete reunion, might it be possible for an agreement between the two sides to offer and accept Holy Communion, but only if one lives where is no parish of his/her own within driving distance? I know that the official answer now is "no", but this could change in 30-50 years, if a massive closing of churches occurs.

 

[everbecoming2007]

I rarely hear this discussed among the Orthodox when the topic of hypothetical reunion emerges, but having had experience of the Novus Ordo, shouldn't Orthodox be concerned with the state of modern liturgical practice in the Roman Catholic Church? I would think this would be a huge obstacle to reunion.

I also have experience of the traditional Roman Rite and the liturgy of St. John of Chrysostom. These rites, compared to your typical Novus Ordo celebrations, are like night and day.

I have never been convinced that the Novus Ordo is merely another form of the Roman Rite myself, nor that the Novus Ordo and Roman rite are mutually enriching. If I am to attend a Catholic celebration, I know exactly which rite I will attend of the two if those are my only options.

 

[archer75]

I rarely hear this discussed among the Orthodox when the topic of hypothetical reunion emerges, but having had experience of the Novus Ordo, shouldn't Orthodox be concerned with the state of modern liturgical practice in the Roman Catholic Church? I would think this would be a huge obstacle to reunion.

I also have experience of the traditional Roman Rite and the liturgy of St. John of Chrysostom. These rites, compared to your typical Novus Ordo celebrations, are like night and day.

I have never been convinced that the Novus Ordo is merely another form of the Roman Rite myself, nor that the Novus Ordo and Roman rite are mutually enriching. If I am to attend a Catholic celebration, I know exactly which rite I will attend of the two if those are my only options.

I know what you mean, and I did think the Tridentine Mass was beautiful, but I doubt that the forms of liturgy are are the top of the list of barriers...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Rather than a full and complete reunion, might it be possible for an agreement between the two sides to offer and accept Holy Communion, but only if one lives where is no parish of his/her own within driving distance? I know that the official answer now is "no", but this could change in 30-50 years, if a massive closing of churches occurs.

that's not gonna happen. we are way too different.