Head of the Household

[Paidiske]

Except in many societies/most of history, women weren't free to choose their spouses either... that is something feminism has given us, as it has removed the custom of our fathers choosing our husbands!

I still think that - while at times each spouse needs to submit to the other - a lop-sided power dynamic is not inherently good, even if the spouse being submitted to were nigh on perfect.

 

[Dave-W]

I simply don't see this as being about power/control/submission. Yes, we submit to Christ, but I don't see that verse as being about a "chain of command."

This "head of the woman" verse to me is not so much of a control issue as it is one of accountability.

The verse I couple with that (for those who want to make "headship" a matter of control) which is Heb 13.17 gives the reason in the latter part of the verse:

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Pastors and elders must give an account before God for the misdeeds of their congregants, similarly a husband must give an account before God for his wife's misdeeds and how he treated her. (probably at the final judgement)

Again, this is a burden and not a privilege. It was placed on Adam for letting Eve talk to that snake and KNOWINGLY joining her in her deceived rebellion.

She got tricked. Adam knew what he was doing.

So God holds Adam (and all us husbands) responsible for our wives' sins.

I realize this is NOT egalitarian, but I see no reciprocal responsibility or calling into account on the part of wives for their husbands.

 

[Dave-W]

I still think that - while at times each spouse needs to submit to the other - a lop-sided power dynamic is not inherently good, even if the spouse being submitted to were nigh on perfect.

I agree that a lopsided authoritarian situation is unhealthy; no matter how good the one in power is. None are perfect; only God can take that place.

 

[mkgal1]

So God holds Adam (and all us husbands) responsible for our wives' sins.

Where do you get that from? When I read the Bible I see God asking both Adam and Eve (individually) what they'd done.

In other places of the Bible I still see individual accountability (like Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5...or Abigail and her "foolish" husband, Nabal in 1st Samuel 25).

 

[mkgal1]

Along the lines of "one flesh", I just read this quote:

“To follow Jesus is to be a wholemaker, essentially to love the world into new being and life.”
― Ilia Delio

That's what I see represented in the language of "head" when speaking of both Christ and the church and husband and wives--to be "made whole into new being and life". Don't get that twisted. I don't mean the whole "you complete me" stuff. What I mean is that only genuine love is what reverses selfishness and brokenness.

...and another quote from her:

"Divine power is not a force over us but the humility of love beneath us (Phil 2:6-8), the love that makes existence possible." ~ Ilia Delio The Unbearable Wholeness of Being.

 

[Cimorene]

Anyone else ever feel silenced, voiceless or dismissed because of being a woman?

Nope, never. I'm really, really sorry that you were made to feel that way!! The pastor of our church in Vancouver is a woman, she's terrific. I don't think she'd stand for women being made to feel that way, bc it's not right.

 

[Dave-W]

"So God holds Adam (and all us husbands) responsible for our wives' sins."

Where do you get that from? When I read the Bible I see God asking both Adam and Eve (individually) what they'd done.

Gen 18.9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14 Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

Before Abe even knew Sarah laughed and before she had a chance to respond, the Lord held ABE accountable for his wife's response.

15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then she responded and was corrected directly. But that was AFTER Abraham was called on it.

 

[Paidiske]

There are so many ways to read that dialogue that are not about responsibility/accountability.

 

[Dave-W]

There are so many ways to read that dialogue that are not about responsibility/accountability.

Absolutely. And probably ALL of them are correct. (don'cha just love Hebrew's tendency to have multiple meanings?)

 

[Paidiske]

Yeah, but it puts your "God holds the husband accountable for the wife" argument on shaky foundations there, Dave.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Gen 18.9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14 Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

Before Abe even knew Sarah laughed and before she had a chance to respond, the Lord held ABE accountable for his wife's response.

15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then she responded and was corrected directly. But that was AFTER Abraham was called on it.

Wasn't Abe himself doubled over with laughter?

 

[Dave-W]

Yeah, but it puts your "God holds the husband accountable for the wife" argument on shaky foundations there, Dave.

Not at all. It is not "this or that;" rather it is all/and.

 

[Dave-W]

Wasn't Abe himself doubled over with laughter?

The text does not say that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The text does not say that.

Other text have God telling Abraham to obey his wife when she wanted to drive out Hagar.
Selective texts that don't counter other texts to balance them is something that makes me go hmn ....

 

[Dave-W]

Other text have God telling Abraham to obey his wife when she wanted to drive out Hagar.

Of course.

Selective texts that don't counter other texts to balance them is something that makes me go hmn ...

I see no text that counters Abe being called on the carpet for his wife.

Indeed, the same principle only with congregational leaders and congregants is more explicitly stated:

Heb 13.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

In fact, it was trying to find another scripture to confirm this one that led me to Abraham and Sarah.
It is also one of the reasons I do not want congregational leadership. Never have. (although I did get drafted a couple of times)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Except that could as easily be female leaders. I thought that is what this forum is not about. So as not to have to counter every accusation of being in the wrong.

 

[Dave-W]

Except that could as easily be female leaders. I thought that is what this forum is not about. So as not to have to counter every accusation of being in the wrong.

I would suppose that to be true as well - that a female pastor/elder would be just as "on-the-hook" before God as a male pastor/elder for the misdeeds of a congregant.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I would suppose that to be true as well - that a female pastor/elder would be just as "on-the-hook" before God as a male pastor/elder for the misdeeds of a congregant.

1 Peter 5:5
In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”
Proverbs 3:34
He mocks proud mockers
but shows favor to the humble and oppressed.

It'd entail God's opposition and even mockery from God.
So ...
Cloth yourself or gird yourself with humility as a virtue in service.
( The Greek word is derived from a noun meaning a slave's apron; such an apron girded up the slave's loose garments in the service.)
Peter seems to have the idea of Jesus' example in mind.

John 13:4-7
so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.
After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
1 Peter 1:13
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

 

[Dave-W]

It'd entail God's opposition and even mockery from God.
So ...
Cloth yourself or gird yourself with humility as a virtue in service.
( The Greek word is derived from a noun meaning a slave's apron; such an apron girded up the slave's loose garments in the service.)
Peter seems to have the idea of Jesus' example in mind.

I do not get the point you are trying to make.

The command to obey and submit to congregational leadership in Heb 13.17 pretty much requires one to be humble to be able to do so.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There's a biography about Watchman Nee that shows how he was taught and obeyed a female overland missionary in his younger beginning years and in much of his teachings he references Jeanne Guyon and Jesse Penn Lewis teachings.

Then according to the biography written by Witness Lee; God came to tell him that He was sending a co-worker for him. When he saw that it was a women he rejected her in his heart.

That's an example of a student getting higher than his Teacher. We don't know what that behavior may have grieved.