Head of the Household

[David B.]

That refers back to Adam and Eve that for this reason man shall leave father and mother and become one with his bride, but we are now joined with the Father who is our Godhead.

I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying the verse I mentioned only applied to Adam and Eve and not current day couples with regards to who is the head of who? Or are you saying that husbands and wives are no longer considered one flesh after marriage?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying the verse I mentioned only applied to Adam and Eve and not current day couples with regards to who is the head of who? Or are you saying that husbands and wives are no longer considered one flesh after marriage?

Only in the sense that it applies to Christ and the church.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

When you look at Peter's description of women submitting to husbands it was to unbelieving husbands and they were to do so as Christ kept silent before those who would do harm to Him. As Christ set the example.

 

[mkgal1]

I guess I am asking how Egalitarians interpret 1 Corinthians 11:3? If Christ is the "head" of the man, no one would deny that man is to be submissive to Christ because of his position. But, the same relationship is used to describe a man's relationship to his wife. He is her "head" in the "one flesh" arrangement. I've always reasoned that a body cannot have two heads for optimal condition. Yet, I am curious as to how Egalitarians interpret the meaning of the verse.

I just wanted to add to what Cassia posted (because I agree with her---it does go back to Adam & Eve--more specifically to their being "one flesh" as you mentioned).

You seem to be reading "head" through the filter of authority---when I believe it's more about a metaphor of the body and unity.

Paul wrote this during a time when beheading was common (gruesome...I know...but think of how differently they would "hear" this metaphor). Separating the body from the head = death. To my mind.....this is a metaphor of "restoring life" through the love of God.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes. I would see the "headship" stuff as about identity. If Christ is your head, your identity is in Christ. If your husband is your head, your identity is with him. There is supposed to be unity.

I simply don't see this as being about power/control/submission. Yes, we submit to Christ, but I don't see that verse as being about a "chain of command."

 

[David B.]

I just wanted to add to what Cassia posted (because I agree with her---it does go back to Adam & Eve--more specifically to their being "one flesh" as you mentioned).

You seem to being read "head" through the filter of authority---when I believe it's more about an analogy of the body and unity.

Paul wrote this during a time when beheading was common (gruesome...I know...but think of how differently they would "hear" this analogy). Separating the body from the head = death. To my mind.....this is an analogy of "restoring life" through the love of God.

Adam and Eve did not have parents to leave, so why does the verse speak of parents when they had none if the scripture applies to Adam and Eve with regards to being one flesh?

 

[mkgal1]

Adam and Eve did not have parents to leave, so why does the verse speak of parents when they had none if the scripture applies to Adam and Eve with regards to being one flesh?

That's a good question. This is Genesis 2:

>>>>23 Then the man said,

‘This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one shall be called Woman,
for out of Man this one was taken.’

24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.<<<

My opinion is that "one flesh" isn't about biology but about something more spiritual....emotional....eternal. What's your take on that?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Adam and Eve did not have parents to leave, so why does the verse speak of parents when they had none if the scripture applies to Adam and Eve with regards to being one flesh?

They were leaving our heavenly Father, were they not. Christ has has returned us to the father.

Another analogy is that man followed the women out of the garden away from the Father, the second Man has brought here to His New Home and back to the Father.
The bible in a nutshell

 

[David B.]

They were leaving our heavenly Father, were they not. Christ has has returned us to the father.

Another analogy is that man followed the women out of the garden away from the Father, the second Man has brought here to His New Home and back to the Father.
The bible in a nutshell

How did they leave the father? This verse was mentioned before they sinned and fell from His good graces. The tone of verse was also worded as though it would apply to ALL men in the future to come, which is why "A man" is used instead of "you".

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

How did they leave the father? This verse was mentioned before they sinned and fell from His good graces. The tone of verse was also worded as though it would apply to ALL men in the future to come, which is why "A man" is used instead of "you".

Maybe I've lost track of the conversation, what point were you trying to make?

 

[David B.]

That's a good question. This is Genesis 2:

>>>>23 Then the man said,

‘This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one shall be called Woman,
for out of Man this one was taken.’

24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.<<<

My opinion is that "one flesh" isn't about biology but about something more spiritual....emotional....eternal. What's your take on that?

I think I would agree with that. I've never read the verse as literal. Adam and Eve were a special case and literally were of "one flesh", however for the average marriage they descend from separate parents. Once one becomes married, their mate becomes their priority so much so that the concern they have for them is like the concern they have for their own flesh. (Ephesians 5:28 Ephesians 5:29) and yet again Christ is paralleled as a model for the dynamic.

 

[David B.]

Maybe I've lost track of the conversation, what point were you trying to make?

I'm not trying to make a point, just clarifying Egalitarian beliefs on the matter. You said Adam and Eve left the father. What did you mean by that?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm not trying to make a point, just clarifying Egalitarian beliefs on the matter. You said Adam and Eve left the father. What did you mean by that?

Here's the link to the statement of purpose.
Statement of Purpose - Egalitarian Christians Statement of Purpose

Genesis 2:23-25 has the man saying something prophetic at the least.

I still don't get your point.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm not trying to make a point, just clarifying Egalitarian beliefs on the matter. You said Adam and Eve left the father. What did you mean by that?

My beliefs are my beliefs that I stated above. Anything else you'll find in the SoP

 

[David B.]

Here's the link to the statement of purpose.
Statement of Purpose - Egalitarian Christians Statement of Purpose

Genesis 2:23-25 has the man saying something prophetic at the least.

I still don't get your point.

My beliefs are my beliefs that I stated above. Anything else you'll find in the SoP

Hmm...My goal is not to argue with you, make a point or change your beliefs, it is simply to understand the foundation of your beliefs in light of the scriptures. In other words, why are you Egalitarian as opposed to some other Christian denomination? What about the particular interpretation of scriptures drew you to it? I have read the statement of purpose, however the statement of purpose is vague. It does not capture what life in an Egalitarian married household is like and what scriptures are used to support it being that way. If this is too personal for you I understand and I will respect that.

 

[Paidiske]

Why am I an egalitarian? (Which is not a denomination, but a theology of human beings which is shared across denominations).

I wasn't always. I think I listened to and read about the problems in non-egalitarian households, and societies, and tried to understand them in light of my faith and the Scriptures and so forth... and the only way I could build a coherent understanding of all of that, was to accept that the strand of the Scriptural witness which is about equality is the one which best reflects God's will for us.

For me, as someone who has been abused, and who has seen Scripture twisted to justify my abuse, part of it is rejecting any sort of take on Scripture which would ever justify such action; as non-egalitarian readings can tend to do.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hmm...My goal is not to argue with you, make a point or change your beliefs, it is simply to understand the foundation of your beliefs in light of the scriptures. In other words, why are you Egalitarian as opposed to some other Christian denomination? What about the particular interpretation of scriptures drew you to it? I have read the statement of purpose, however the statement of purpose is vague. It does not capture what life in an Egalitarian married household is like and what scriptures are used to support it being that way. If this is too personal for you I understand and I will respect that.

Are you a reporter reporting our forum to the outer courts of cf?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Why am I an egalitarian? (Which is not a denomination, but a theology of human beings which is shared across denominations).

I wasn't always. I think I listened to and read about the problems in non-egalitarian households, and societies, and tried to understand them in light of my faith and the Scriptures and so forth... and the only way I could build a coherent understanding of all of that, was to accept that the strand of the Scriptural witness which is about equality is the one which best reflects God's will for us.

For me, as someone who has been abused, and who has seen Scripture twisted to justify my abuse, part of it is rejecting any sort of take on Scripture which would ever justify such action; as non-egalitarian readings can tend to do.

Where does the word egalitarian mean? I can't even pronounce it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Why am I an egalitarian? (Which is not a denomination, but a theology of human beings which is shared across denominations).

I wasn't always. I think I listened to and read about the problems in non-egalitarian households, and societies, and tried to understand them in light of my faith and the Scriptures and so forth... and the only way I could build a coherent understanding of all of that, was to accept that the strand of the Scriptural witness which is about equality is the one which best reflects God's will for us.

For me, as someone who has been abused, and who has seen Scripture twisted to justify my abuse, part of it is rejecting any sort of take on Scripture which would ever justify such action; as non-egalitarian readings can tend to do.

Well said. Thanks

 

[David B.]

Why am I an egalitarian? (Which is not a denomination, but a theology of human beings which is shared across denominations).

I wasn't always. I think I listened to and read about the problems in non-egalitarian households, and societies, and tried to understand them in light of my faith and the Scriptures and so forth... and the only way I could build a coherent understanding of all of that, was to accept that the strand of the Scriptural witness which is about equality is the one which best reflects God's will for us.

For me, as someone who has been abused, and who has seen Scripture twisted to justify my abuse, part of it is rejecting any sort of take on Scripture which would ever justify such action; as non-egalitarian readings can tend to do.

I figured there would be some sort of abuse rooted in. It makes sense. People have abused the bible and women for centuries. The bible prophesied that this would happen as a result of the fall (Genesis 3:16). The dynamics of men and women have been greatly removed from God's original ones. However I suppose there is a check and balance. The bible says the head of a woman is the man out of respect for his being the first of human creation (1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Timothy 2:13). But it also says one who abuses their wife will not go unpunished (1 Peter 3:7). Ephesians 5:21-28 Talks about the dynamics of the household with relation to Christ as head over it. Christ does not force his followers to follow him. They have a choice. However should they choose to follow him, they can only do so properly if they recognize his authority over them.

It may seem unfair to be subjugated because of gender, but I suppose a woman's power comes from her ability to choose her mate. If one chooses a godly mate, he will have her best interests at heart and being submissive will be beneficial. But if one's mate is selfish, ungodly, and stupid, submission and respect could be detrimental. But then again those are just my thoughts on it. I understand we are different, and I respect that. I wish you happiness in your relationship.