• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Paul uses the word "allegory" only once in Scripture, and Galatians 4:23-29 is that place.

    Paul made it very clear to the reader that he was teaching by allegory in Galatians 4:28-29.

    Galatians 4:23-25
    23 However, the son by the servant was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise. 24 These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for she is in bondage with her children.

    An allegory is a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning.

    In John 3, Lord Jesus was careful to give Nicodemus a complete explanation to his question "How can this be?" in John 3:13-18. Only by faith are we given Spiritual Life - the eternal life of God.

    "Jeremiah 31:31-34," along with Passages in Ezekiel and Joel, teaches us that only in the New Covenant would the Regeneration of the Spirit begin.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 (WEB)
    31 “Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of mine they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says Yahweh.
    33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Yahweh:
    “I will put my law in their inward parts, and I will write it in their heart. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    The New Covenant of the Spirit began AFTER Lord Jesus was glorified, so that those who believe would now receive the Spirit to give them Spiritual Life - read it and see if this is not correct:

    John 7:37-39 (WEB)
    37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

    What does this Scripture mean to you?
    Which Scriptures were fulfilled (vs 38)?

    So, only after Christ Jesus appeared to save us did regeneration begin to take place - just as the Scriptures prophesied.

    Titus 3:4-6 (WEB)
    4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior

    When did Lord Jesus appear to save us?
    When did regeneration begin?

    So, when are we born again or regenerated?
  2. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    When we repent toward God and Believe in Lord Jesus we are sanctifying our lives to God - committing to deny the old life, and then, by faith, are committing our lives to follow Lord Jesus into a holy (sanctified) life of righteousness. The fruit of that faith (sanctification) is good works.

    Romans 6:21-22 (WEB)
    21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

    Therefore, by faith, we are sanctified, not that sanctification is a 2nd work of God.

    Acts 26:18 (WEB)
    18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

    If your faith includes repentance, as the Gospel teaches, then that must be sanctification, because there can be no real faith without sanctification - denying the old life, and living for Jesus. That is sanctification.

    The rest of our life is a commitment to endure in that faith, and to grow in faith, but sanctification is the faith you committed to.

    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    I can see how you can read Galatians 4:28-29 from that perspective. While the apostle Paul says these things are allegory, it does not rule out a literal interpretation, too. It says that as Isaac was persecuted, we are also persecuted. Why? Because just as Isaac was born after the Spirit, so we (faithful believers) who are born after the Spirit are persecuted, too. Why? Because they are hating the light or God inside a believer.

    As I said before, I am aware of your interpretation that Nicodemus should have been aware of the future prophecy of the New Covenant in the OT Scriptures. I am just saying that seems highly unlikely that Nicodemus should be aware of some new upcoming prophecy in the form of a riddle. Nowhere does OT Scripture specifically state the phrase “born again.” It seems more likely that Nicodemus should have been aware of a basic teaching that existed in the OT. For the OT talks about being circumcised in heart, and with God telling Israel in the present tense to have a new heart, and spirit.

    This is in reference to receiving the Spirit and not in reference to exclusively being born again.
    John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit since birth. So this is in context to the disciples.
    I am also not equating the giving of the Spirit to being born again, either. Although I am sure that is what would happen after they received a new heart in the New Covenant, though.
    Remember, that even Saul's men had the Spirit come upon them and they prophsied.
    This does not mean they were born again.

    I will admit. This is really good passage that sounds like it defends your viewpoint. But again, the Bible does not contradict itself. There are other verses that you need to explain away in order to make this viewpoint work.

    Note: I don't believe Titus 3:4-6 is a case that an OT saint could not be born again. First, verse 5 says, “not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves.” No OT saint was ever saved by works of righteousness that they have done alone without God's grace. The OT saint was also saved by God's grace through faith and in the regeneration by the Spirit, too. I also see the renewing by the Holy Spirit as the Sanctification Process. The Spirit indwells the true genuine faithful believer and can help that person to renew their lives daily in conforming to Christ. Romans 8:13 is not something the average OT saint had. They could not put away the lusts of the flesh by the Spirit because not all OT saints had the Holy Spirit indwelling them (unlike kings and prophets). Today, all genuine faithful believers are kings and priests (Revelation 1:6).

    Anyways, we see in Scripture evidence that OT saints were born again here:

    Ezekiel 44:9 says,

    "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."​

    How do you circumcise a person's heart? Would that not kill a person? In other words, a person had to be circumcised in their heart in order to enter the sanctuary. Circumcision of the heart is the same thing as being born again.

    Jeremiah 4:4 says,

    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."​

    We see a similiar saying here but God tells Israel to make for themselves a new heart, and a new spirit.

    Ezekiel 18:31-32

    “Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”​

    This can only be if they are born again.
    For it would be impossible for God to tell them to do something they cannot do themselves.
    The way they can have a new heart by the Spirit is if they repent.
    The way they can have a new spirit by the Spirit is if they repent.

    Important Note:

    Ezekiel 18:31-32 does not sound like a future prophecy, either. It clearly reads in the present tense where God is telling Israel to do something now. A person can only have a new heart, and new spirit if they are born again or circumcised in their heart.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Does not sanctification and fruit involve the work of faith?

    You said, “The fruit of that faith (sanctification) is good works.”

    I believe that. I believe the fruit of one's faith is good works. I believe these good works is the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. These good works are ultimately God working through us (Philippians 2:13, John 15:5). So there is no boasting in one's own efforts alone without God's grace (Ephesians 2:9).

    A church in Revelation is told to be faithful unto death and they will be given the crown of life (See: Revelation 2:10).

    When you think about the word “faithful” would that not include “the work of faith”?
    Is receiving the crown of life a part of salvation?

    Is not Romans 10:17 saying that faith comes by hearing the Word of God?
    Do you see “the Word of God” in Romans 10:17 as being reference to the Bible?
    Or do you see “the Word of God” in Romans 10:17 as being reference to Jesus?
    Or do you see “the Word of God” in Romans 10:17 as being in reference to both Jesus and the Bible?

    So the words of Jesus or the Bible are a part of the faith because faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Bible is full of righteous instruction so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16). This verse among others is a part of the faith. For Jesus said to His disciples, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). In other words, if a person does not receive the words of the apostle Paul, then it is as if they are not receiving Jesus.

    Can a believer who lives out their faith have no fruit and be saved?

    It does not appear so according to Luke 3:8-9.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    What I read here is: According to setst777, salvation is obtained by repentance, faith in Christ and enduring in the faith. The first two things are Christ-dependent but the last is you-dependent. Insofar as your salvation depends on you, on your endurance, your Saviour is actually not Christ but you. What I hear you saying is that, however perfect Christ's atonement was, however much it perfectly satisfied God's holy justice, it still needs your effort, your addition of endurance, to be complete. I hear you saying Christ can only save you if you if you save yourself by your endurance. You are, essentially, a co-Saviour with Christ. He only does most of the saving but you play a crucial role in keeping yourself saved. It's some of Jesus and some of you.

    Do you not see how blasphemous this is? There is no co-Saviour. There is only one Way, one Good Shepherd, one Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5) Jesus saves you; you don't - you can't - save yourself. Your helplessness, your utter weakness, is exactly why Jesus had to die in your place, why he had to rescue you from the consequences of your sin through the torments of crucifixion and the shedding of his blood.

    Romans 5:6-10
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Ephesians 2:1-5
    1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

    You were "without strength" before God drew you to Christ; you were bound under the power of the World, the Flesh, and the devil, "dead in trespasses and sins," and totally unable to do anything to save yourself from yourself. But now, being saved, you suddenly have sufficient power to keep yourself saved, to endure to the end? You had no power before your salvation to live God's way. By what means have you obtained the power necessary to endure in your salvation?

    As I have explained in past posts, your ability to "endure to the end" is imparted to you from the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit has, by coming to live within you, worked into you all that God has commanded you to work out.

    Philippians 2:12-13
    12 ...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
    13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

    In the Person of the Holy Spirit, we abide in Christ, who is called the "Spirit of Christ" in Romans 8:9. Without the Spirit of Christ, we can do nothing.

    John 15:4-5
    4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
    5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

    We cannot save ourselves, we cannot "bear fruit," and we cannot endure to the end without the power of God working in us in the Person of the Spirit, enabling us to do so.

    I am not talking about compulsion, here. The Spirit does not coerce or compel us to right living. He works in us only as we submit (James 4:7), yield (Romans 6:13), surrender (Romans 12:1) ourselves to his will and way. As we do, he moves in us to transform us, conforming us to Christ, empowering us unto holiness.

    But just as Christ is the Bridge to God through salvation, saving us from ourselves, the Holy Spirit is the Power Source for Christian living, in himself being for us what we could never be for ourselves. There is, then, no contribution we make to the work of God in saving us or in keeping us. We simply receive, remain in, and reflect the work of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:27-31
    27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
    28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
    29 so that no man may boast before God.
    30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
    31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

    Yes, according to God's word. See above.

    What blindness! Wow. This is what happens when Self is given its head, when Self supplants the Spirit in Christian living.

    I don't contend that all responsibility is removed from the Christian in walking with God. But the believer's "responsibility" is to respond to the work of the Spirit by receiving his work, remaining in it by faith, and reflecting his transforming work in holy living. Any other approach to Christian living is both unbiblical and doomed to failure. Without Christ, the Vine, living in us in the Person of the Spirit, we can do NOTHING.

    Actually, I hold to a mixture of Provisionism and Molinism, soteriologically.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  6. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Lord Jesus could only be referring to the prophecies of the New Covenant in the Spirit as foretold by the Old Testament prophets. The Book of Acts draws upon these prophecies as well in Acts 2 - the promise of the Spirit that would be given to those who repent and believe (Acts 2:38).

    If the Spirit of Christ is not in you, you are still dead in your sins.

    Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    I don't know what you think "Born Again" means. But if the Spirit is not IN the believer, then that person is not spiritually alive, nor does he belong to Jesus.

    Because God set aside John the Baptist as a prophet from birth, does that mean all the Old Testament believers had the Spirit since birth? If not, what are you saying by bringing this up?

    I am puzzled... You say you are not equating the giving of the Spirit with being born again, but you realize that is exactly what would happen in the New Covenant.

    I am perplexed as to why you brought it up if you know it does not mean they were born again.

    "Titus 3:4-6" cannot be explained away. The regeneration of the Spirit occurred when Lord Jesus appeared to save us from our sins - not before.

    The Old Testament prophecies clearly teach that the new heart and new Spirit that God would give, was for the New Covenant.

    Just like the OT saints, we believe before ever being regenerated. How? By the call of God through the convicting work of the Word of God - the Sword of the Spirit.

    Ephesians 6:17 (WEB) . . .the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

    Hebrews 4:12 (WEB)
    12 For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    The Spirit and the Word have always been active in the World, searching the hearts of men (Psalms 33:18-19; Psalms 139:1; Psalms 139:21; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 5:6; Psalms 25:8-9), convicting and enlightening every man who enters the world (John 1:9; Hebrews 4:12).

    But being born again of the Spirit is a New Testament promise, so that those who believe may now receive that Promise.

    "Jeremiah 4:4" is referring to repentance.

    "Ezekiel 44" and "Ezekiel 18" are referring to the New Covenant that was to come. The word "make" is also translated as "get."

    By repentance
    , they were to get a new hear and spirit. When we look up all the OT Passages regarding the New Heart and Spirit, we find that this is referring only to the New Covenant.

    Ezekiel 11:18-21 (WEB)
    18 “‘They will come there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there (repentance). 19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walks after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way on their own heads, (those who do not repent) says the Lord Yahweh.”

    The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit takes place in the New Covenant – after Christ Jesus appeared. All this is in agreement with the prophecies regarding regeneration – only for the New Covenant (Joel 2:28-29; Ezekiel 11:16-21; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    The Ezekiel prophecies about the New Heart and New Spirit are clear when you read them together, because some of the references do not give enough details.

  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Philippians 2:12 says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is in context to God working in us to do of His good will and pleasure (See: Philippians 2:13).
  8. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    The work of faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Not that faith is a work, rather, the work of faith - the fruits we bear.

    Yes. And God does this work in us through His Spirit that indwells us. Even so, for God to do His good work in us, we are admonished to continue to faithfully live, walk, and sow to the Spirit, so the Spirit may lead us. Not everyone will remain faithful, and so will grieve, quench, and insult the Spirit, which could lead to loss of salvation:

    Ephesians 4:30-31 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

    Hebrews 10:29 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much severe punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Yes, the crown of life refers to salvation.

    Yes, being faithful comes from your Faith in Jesus. "faithful" in this sense is referring to your character as being a trustworthy and righteous person in your dealings with others. In that sense, faithfulness, is a fruit of the Spirit that comes from someone who, by faith, lives by the Spirit dwelling in them.

    Both actually.

    In the Old Testament
    , God called Israel to himself though His Word - the Good News of God which the prophets spoke to Israel. God also called people to repentance among the Gentiles as well.

    In the New Covenant, God calls all people to himself though the Good News that is in Lord Jesus.

    Yes, true. Good insight.

    You are correct. A true believer is a follower of Lord Jesus, and so is a good tree. A good tree bears good fruit, not bad fruit.

  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Joshua had the Spirit (Numbers 27:18).
    Caleb had the Spirit (Numbers 14:24).
    John the baptist had the Holy Spirit since birth (Luke 1:15).
    Elisabeth had the Spirit (Luke 1:41).
    OT prophets had the Spirit (1 Peter 1:10-11).

    Also, the fathers who crossed the red sea drank of the Rock, and that Rock was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

    I believe Christ dwelled in all OT saints, and they were born again.
    For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12).

    Think about the OT saints that were not prophets or kings. Can we say that because they did not have the Spirit of Christ, and or they were not His? Job was not said to be a prophet or a king. Can you honestly say that he was not of God or not of God's possession or kingdom?

    You say that having the Spirit means one is born again.
    You say that the Spirit was not given until Christ was glorified (ascended at the right hand of the Father). Yet, the Spirit departed from Saul. Was Saul born again?

    Saul's men prophesied by the Spirit but they were not born again.

    And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.” (1 Samuel 19:20).

    Because you are saying that having the Spirit is the equivalent of being born again (When this is not always the case).

    I would say that this would be the case if we did not have any OT Scripture that talks about being born again.

    You think that the temple animal sacrifices (Whereby God accepts such sacrifices) will be reinstituted in the future according to Ezekiel 44?

    If so, that would be a serious error. Once Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn and the laws on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices had clearly ended.

    Ezekiel 44:9 is talking about how an Israelite cannot enter into the sanctuary being uncircumcised in heart in their own time when the animal sacrifices were in effect. It cannot be talking about some future event after the death of Christ. For Jesus began the New Covenant with His death.

    Ezekiel 18:31 does not read like some future prophecy. It reads as if it is referring to the here and now. Just read the chapter and it is clear that this is so.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Faith starts off as a belief and trust in God.
    This is how we are first saved by God's grace (without the deeds of the Law).
    But faith does not stop or end there. The journey of faith continues and does not remain as a belief alone. Faith can also include righteous actions. We see this in Hebrews 11. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). So we can see that righteous actions is tied to the faith, as well. The work of faith is a part of the faith. But you want me to believe that faith and the work of faith are two different things. The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” and yet we know that the “work” is tied to “the Lord.” They cannot be separated. That is why it is called the “work of faith” and not just “works.”

    Also, what is one of the fruits of the Spirit? Faith. To trust God is a fruit of the Spirit. Fruit is a work, and yet one of the fruits is also said to be faith. Hence, faith can refer to work (i.e. the work of faith).

    Granted, God does not force us to be a certain way. We have to choose to have faith to begin with. God is not going to believe for us. God is not going to do the good works for us. We must remain faithful unto death so as to receive the crown of life. The word faithful implies doing righteous things. For if I said that a man was faithful to his wife, this would not be a mental acknowledgment only. This would mean he was physically being faithful to her. This would involve some form of righteous actions. The word FAITHFUL. It is derived from the word FAITH. FAITHFUL is just another way of saying the “work of faith.”

    Do we have to cooperate with God in doing good works?
    Yes, or no?
    Does doing these good works involve salvation?

    I would say that this would be a... “yes” because Matthew 25 says that those believers who did not help the poor were told to go away into a punishment that has everlasting consequences.

    Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus defined loving your neighbor as helping the poor beat up man on the side of the road (Luke 10:29-37).

    1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
    I see the light as God (See: 1 John 1:5).
    I see walking in the light as loving your brother by the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.
    This is backed up by 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15.
    So we must love our brother (in our actions and words alone) as a part of the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin (Which involves salvation). So faith does not remain as a belief alone in Jesus. Faith continues and it manifests itself in a different way.

    Anyways, being faithful is in reference to doing something. For we know according to 1 John 1:9, that God is faithful in his actions towards us if we confess of our sins. We know that the Lord is faithful, who will strengthen you and will keep you from evil (2 Thessalonians 3:3). This again implies that God is doing something to help us in being kept away from evil. So faithful includes doing something righteous or good (i.e. good works).

    Then you may like this thread I created a while back.

    The Living Word & the Communicated Word.

    For the thread shows a connection between the Living Word (Jesus) and the communicated Word (the Bible). I discovered 41 connections in Scripture.

    Anyways, if you believe Romans 10:17 is referring to the Bible, then faith would be the Bible. Everything. All of it. The whole Bible is a part of our faith. The Bible is chocked full of righteous instructions. That too is a part of the faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (the Bible). So whatever I obey (hear) in the Bible (even doing righteous things), it is a part of the faith.

    Hope this helps;
    And may God bless you greatly today.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Friend you teach conditional Salvation, far from what the scripture teaches. I hope God grant you repentance, and give you to believe in Salvation by Grace.
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Salvation is Conditional:
    (Just read and believe the following points in Scripture):

    • Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
    • Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
    • Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.
    • Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
    • Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
    • Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
    • Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
    • Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
    • Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?
    • Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.
    • John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).
    • John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
    • John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
    • John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ.
    • Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
    • Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
    • Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
    • Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
    • Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.
    • Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    • 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
    • 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
    • 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
    • Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
    • Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    • Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    • Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
    • Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
    • Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
    • Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
      … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
    • Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.
    • Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
    • Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
    • 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
    • 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
    • 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.
    • 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
    • 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
    • Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
    • Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
    • Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
    • Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
    • Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
    • Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
    • Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
    • Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
    • Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
    • Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
    • Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
    • Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
    • Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
    • James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.
    • 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
    • 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
    • 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.
    • 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
    • 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    • 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
    • 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
    • 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
    • Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality
    • Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
    • Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
    • Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
    • Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
    • Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
    • Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
    • Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
    • Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
    • Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Please dont spam up Gods Word like that! Salvation was conditioned on Christ, and He fulfilled all the conditions, in order to give it [Salvation] to as many as the Father gave Him Jn 17:2

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Now if you condition Salvation on man instead of Christ, you teach salvation by works, by mans merit.
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    United States

    You are correct, because they had Faith which is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 Abel was born again because Heb 11:4

    By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Sorry, what you believe is clearly not taught in the Bible. For example: You quote a verse that you think defends you, but in reality Hebrews 11:4 actually refutes what you believe. By faith Abel OFFERED UNTO GOD A MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE THAN CAIN. Why? Because he had a belief alone in Jesus? No. Because Abel obeyed God in what He told him to do. If you remember the story in Genesis 4, God talked with Cain and said this:

    “You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:7) (NLT).

    1 John 3 says:

    11 “For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
    12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.” (1 John 3:11-12).

    So we see that Cain's works were evil and Abel's works were righteous.
    Is this a salvation issue?
    Yes. For we read...

    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    So are you doing righteousness? Are you loving your brother? These are conditions as a part of being of God.

    1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    So again, we cannot hate our brother. This is a condition. For if we hate our brother we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    This is a false claim. Nowhere am I spamming God's Word. For we are not talking about just 10 verses here even, but an overwhelming amount of verses that deluges the reader with the truth that salvation is clearly conditional. It's why you have not even explained even one of the verses on my list.

    Lets look at a couple of the IF statements in the Bible that relates to salvation.

    John 14:15IF you love me, keep my commandments.”
    Note: Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Is keeping the commands of our Lord a salvation issue? Well, Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus also agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor (which are commandments) is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

    John 15:14 “You are My friends, IF you do whatever I command you.”

    Does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus, is not His friend, does not obey Him?

    Romans 8:13-14 “For IF you live according to the flesh you will die;
    but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

    Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches (the Israelites),

    He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God:

    on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness.

    Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

    1 Corinthians 15:2 “the gospel which I preached to you … by which also you are saved,

    IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.”

    Colossians 1:21-23 “He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death,

    to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —

    IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,

    and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel”

    Hebrews 3:6 “Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are

    IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

    Hebrews 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning

    of our confidence steadfast to the end”

    1 John 1:7 “But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    1 John 1:9
    IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    1 John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments.”

    Note: Knowing God or Jesus is a salvation issue. For John 17:3 says: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    So all these IF statements would not exist in the Bible if things are as you say.

    For example: Rick can say to Bob,

    “I can fix your bike tomorrow if you come over my house with your bike.”

    The conditional IF statement lets us know it is conditional. Rick will fix Bob's bike if he comes over his house tomorrow with his bike. It's a condition.

    Paul teaches that a person can deny God by having no works (See: Titus 1:16).
    Jesus taught to cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. Jesus said we will know a tree by it's fruit (Matthew 7:16). Meaning, we can know a person by their actions.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  17. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

    Hey BH, how can you help a guy (like #52)
    who doesn't understand what "IF" means?
    IF you ever figure it out, please let us know.
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States

    Another verse that is indicative of how the OT saints were born again or received a new heart from God is in 1 Samuel 10:9.

    “And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.” (1 Samuel 10:9).​

    This to me is unmistakable evidence.

    Jesus says that if a person is not born again, they cannot even see the kingdom of God. I believe this is more than just to enter God's kingdom (John 3:5), but it is to have spiritual eyes (John 3:3). It is to be renewed spiritually whereby one is no longer the same person they were before.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States

    In John chapter 3, when Nicodemus came to the Lord Jesus at night, their discussion took place under the Old Covenant, and Jesus reinforced the requirement of being “born again” to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3) (John 3:5). Being born again is regeneration. Therefore, when Jesus talked about how “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,” being in the kingdom of God, He inferred they were regenerated (See: Luke 13:28-29). For a person cannot enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again (John 3:5). Abraham, Isaac, are all going to be able to enter the Kingdom. So this means they are born again. It's the only logical conclusion.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  20. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Joshua was the leader of Israel after Moses, so God's Spirit was in him in a special way to function for God in that role, just as with the kings of Israel.

    The Spirit of God did not indwell Caleb, rather, Caleb had a "different spirit" then the others who did not trust God and so were making the Israelites afraid to go up into the land to overtake it. Caleb trusted God, and so exhibited a different spirit.

    This was a temporary filling so that Elisabeth could prophesy.

    This is an allegory. The Rock from which the water came, that Moses struck with his rod, of which all the Israelites drank from to sustain their lives, symbolizes the New Covenant promise of drinking of the Spirit, through whom we have life in Christ Jesus.

    That is your belief. Everyone has a belief.

    Correct, only in the New Covenant.

    Hebrews 8:10-13
    This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people... 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    God accredited righteousness to those who feared God or believed in Him, but they were not saved by Christ until Christ had died for their sins.

    Hebrews 9:15
    15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

    Saul was a king of Israel under God's theocracy. God anointed the kings of Israel with His Spirit for that purpose.

    The Spirit would temporarily or permanently indwell people for special tasks, but that is not the New Covenant pouring out of the Spirit, born again, that God promised would happen after Christ Jesus was resurrected.

    Yes, that is always the case. Without the Spirit indwelling a person after believing in the Word (the Sword of the Spirit), there is no born again.

    Only in prophesy for the New Covenant after Christ was resurrected was anyone born again.

    1 Peter 1:3-5
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance that doesn’t fade away, reserved in Heaven for you

    This Passage regards the 1000 year reign of Christ to complete His promises that God made to Israel.

    Read Zechariah 14

    All this is prophecy regarding the 1000 year reign of Christ.

    Read the prophecies in Ezekiel together, and see also the other prophecies in other OT books and then you will see.

    Joel 2:28-29; Ezekiel 11:16-21; Ezekiel 18:31; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Joel 2:28-29; Jeremiah 31:31-34