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"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, God does exert His saving power upon us only as we believe, and “live by faith.”

    Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

    1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Peter 1:9 (WEB) 9 receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    Regarding Ephesians 2:1 and Romans 3:23, you are taking Scriptures out of context and then supplying your own opinions to them – which are Calvinist views once again, although you deny.

    I agree that, by grace, God has elected some that were Spiritually dead to be given life – Regeneration
    Only through faith does this regenerative work of God become a reality. If this be so, then a person is not regenerated so they can believe; but rather, they are regenerated because they do believe. Let us see if this is true or not by God’s Word.

    By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life (Ephesians 2:1):

    John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light (Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:13):

    John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

    John 12:46 (WEB)
    46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

    By faith
    , we are made alive (Colossians 2:13) when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

    John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

    Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    By faith, not by works, we secure the promise of God to be made alive (Colossians 2:13) and are freed from the prison of sin (Romans 6:18).

    Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

    By faith in the working of God, we are raised with Christ (Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:6).

    Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    By faith in Jesus we are redeemed by the sacrifice of God’s Son (Galatians 3:13) :

    John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness (1 Corinthians 1:6-11):

    1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

    By faith, God sanctifies us by His Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:6-11) :

    Acts 26:17-18 (NIV) 17 I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

    By faith, we access all God’s gracious work of salvation:

    Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
    Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Not all will believe through Him, although that is God’s desire (1 Timothy 2:3-4; Isaiah 45:21-22), but God’s sovereign purpose is that, as many as do believe would be saved (John 3:14-18; Isaiah 55:7)…

    1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

    If God chooses to give His free gift of salvation to those who will repent toward him, and believe in His Son, who are you to say that God’s will is blasphemy?

    1 Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
    13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ— 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45]
    17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

    This Passage sounds a lot like Romans 6 and Colossians 3:1-17. I wonder why the Scriptures keep repeating the same teaching about a faith demonstrated in obedience to Lord Jesus in a life of holiness to be saved. Could it because that is what Lord Jesus also taught us?

    Luke 9:23-25 (WEB) 23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

    Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

    setst777 said:
    1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
    16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


    Once again, you are quoting Scripture out of context and then filling in your own opinion. That is why I quoted and responded to Titus 3:4-7 earlier, and you wondered why I did that. Now you know.

    Paul’s letter is addressed to Titus, a faithful servant of God, who was already saved. Titus was saved because he too put his faith in Jesus so he could be saved- according to the Gospel (John 3:16). God saves us when we believe.

    Paul is stating a fact of God’s saving grace, but does not show how that saving grace is appropriated in this Passage because his intent is to praise God for the salvation that comes through Lord Jesus.

    So, when are we regenerated?
    Therefore, in the New Covenant, after one repents and believes, through the convicting, enlightening, and inviting call of the Spirit and Word, these are the ones the Spirit indwells to give them life, which is the regeneration of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus after he appeared to save us – from death to life, from darkness to light, raised with Christ, washed, cleansedonly through faith.

    John 5:24; John 8:12; John 12:46; John 7:37-39; Romans 8:9-10; Galatians 3:21-22; Colossians 2:12; John 3:14-18; 1 John 1:9; Acts 22:16; Acts 26:17-18

    Obligation of the Christian to endure to the end
    Obligation of the Christian to live by the Spirit.

    But only as the believer continues in the faith demonstrated by living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells them by faith (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25)

    Faithfully living by the Spirit is the obligation or condition of the Christian to be led by the Spirit and to be saved (Romans 8:12-14).

    As we are faithful to follow Christ, living by His Spirit, the Spirit leads us:

    Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
    12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

    Therefore, regeneration is a promise for the New Testament to whosoever repents and believes in Jesus after being invited by the convicting power of the Gospel Word and the Spirit.

    Unless we want to claim that the Scriptures oppose each other, we must learn to search the context of Scripture for answers as to when, how, for whom, and for what purpose the quotes they make actually become a reality to our lives – how we appropriate all these saving promises of God to ourselves.

    As for your analysis of Romans 11:19-22 you fail to acknowledge that it was (those who fell) that were cut off, and the Gentiles who believe stand by faith . But the Gentiles should not be conceited but be afraid, because they could follow the same example as the Jews who fell away and be cut off. So the object is that the Gentiles remain in God’s kindness by remaining faithful.

    Galatians 6:7-9, once again you are adding your own opinions to the plain teaching of the Scripture. I will let the reader decide the obvious.

    Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

    The Power of God onto Salvation all comes by faith in the Son of God. We access God’s saving grace by faith.

    Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
    Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

    1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    You attempted to also explain away the clear warning and admonishment of Lord Jesus in Revelation 3:1-5, but it will not work to those who want to know the truth.

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Many OT Test Saints seen Christ by Faith via the Law, for instance Moses Heb 11:24-26

    24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

    25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

    26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

    Moses believed in Christ and understood how He was the end of the Law. Moses wrote of Christ Jn 5:46
    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

    Moses under the Law witnessed about Christ, He called Christ a Prophet like himself who God would raise up Deut 18:15

    The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    Moses was a regenerate child of God, Christ dwelt in him 1 Pet 1:10-11

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Love the majority of what you are writing here, brother.
    There are only two things I disagree with you in the love of Christ.

    #1. If I understood what you said correctly, you said that we must deny ourselves, and live holy lives as a part of salvation and the faith (of which I agree with), but then you appear to contradict that idea by saying that we are not saved by the work of faith?

    I hope I am wrong on what you said on this point, and I am simply misunderstooding you. For I believe faith is the vehicle that simply accesses the saving grace of God, and that without faith, we cannot be saved. So faith plays a part in the salvation equation. For without faith it is impossible to please Him (God) (Hebrews 11:6). I believe faith starts off as a trust and belief in being saved by God's grace, redemption, and mercy (and it can continue that way), but I also believe faith also manifests itself with the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). The “work of faith” is tied to the “faith,” and they cannot be separated (Just as the “work” within the “work of the Lord” cannot be separated from “the Lord” - 1 Corinthians 15:58, 1 Corinthians 16:10). For 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. The light is God the Father (1 John 1:5). So we must walk in the light as Christ is in the light (i.e. in God the Father). This “walking in the light” is also loving our brother by the use of indirect wording mentioned in 1 John 2:9-11. So we must love our brother (which involves actions and not mere words or a mental acknowledgment) as a part of the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (also see: 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, James 2:1-9). The word, “faithful” also appears in the New Testament in relation to be saved. Revelation 2:10 basically says to a particular church to be faithful unto death and they will given the crown of life. To be faithful is something a person does (i.e. the work of faith). For 1 John 1:9, and 2 Thessalonians 3:3 both talk about how God can be faithful towards us (and this word is used according to the context as God doing something). Romans 10:17 is another big one. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. What is the Word of God? Well, it can refer to either Jesus, or the Holy Bible. So the whole Bible is a part of the faith. We must hear Jesus in order to have faith. Even receiving the words of the apostles also means we are hearing Jesus (Matthew 10:40). Anyways, the point I want to make here is if all of the New Testament is the faith, then all of the instructions on holy living, and doing good works (i.e. the work of faith) is a part of the faith. Many today just think faith is a belief alone in Jesus, and that's it. But faith we have is the whole New Testament that includes living holy, and going good works after we are saved by God's grace. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Titus 3:5, Paul is referring to the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace and he is condemning “Works ALONE Salvationism” that did not include being initially saved (and or foundationally saved) by God's grace (Note: The reason why Paul spoke this way was because of the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved - Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1).​

    #2. You appear to disagree with the truth that OT saints were be born again.

    The words "circumcision of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament.

    Quick Review:

    Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.

    (Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

    Deuteronomy 10:16

    "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

    Deuteronomy 30:6

    "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

    Jeremiah 4:4

    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

    Ezekiel 44:9

    "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

    Leviticus 26:41

    "And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

    Jeremiah 9:26

    "Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

    Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

    Ezekiel 11:19

    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

    Ezekiel 18:31

    "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"


    Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

    Acts 7:51

    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

    Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

    Philippians 3:3

    "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Romans 2:28-29

    28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    Colossians 2:11

    "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ”

    I hope this helps in some way, brother, and may God bless you greatly today.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):



    I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again. This was not a prophecy that Nicodemus should have known about. This was an actual reality for the Old Testament saint that Nicodemus should have been aware of.

    “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”(John 3:7-8).​

    ...as in:

    26 “But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.” (Galatians 4:26-29).​

    Not sure if you caught it, but if you re-read Galatians 4:26-29 several times in prayer, you will see that Isaac is said to be born after the Spirit. Those who are born after the Spirit are persecuted by those who are born after the flesh.


    Side Note:

    Please take note that I do not believe that Jesus looks like this actor in any way. Jesus was not a white European, but He was Jewish. The video clip was merely posted for instructional purposes involving God's Word.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    setst777

    Not all will believe because they are not of His Sheep which He died for Jn 10:26
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    See only the Sheep will be given Faith to believe. Faith is given by the Spirit, its not of ourselves ! From reading your post, it seems as though you believe Faith is of human origin .
     
  6. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God's Spirit indwelt the kings of Israel, and the prophets, and also some other people to give them special talents. In each case, God's Spirit was in these men to function in their capacity or function.

    However the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to indwell and give life did not occur until after Christ Jesus appeared.

    The Old Testament prophecies do not lie - the regeneration of the Holy Spirit was a New Covenant promise by God: Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    The New Testament is not lying to you. The regeneration of the Spirit was only given after Lord Jesus appeared to save us.

    Titus 3:4-6 (WEB)
    4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior
     
  7. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Your utter nonsense deserves NO response!
     
  8. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    No, in almost every case, God's Spirit came UPON them.
    Twice in the OT, I've seen a prophet saying He was INSIDE,
    butski perhaps he was mistaken ... for t'was usually UPON.
     
  9. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Passages you quoted do not say that the sheep are given faith so they can believe.

    The will of the Father is to give to Lord Jesus only those who will believe in His Son - those are the Sheep of Christ Jesus. Those who do not believe, are not the sheep the Father willed to give to Him.

    John 6:38-40
    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    So in John 10:26, Lord Jesus is identifying the sheep that are not His - the ones the Father did not give him - based on whether they believe in Him or not.

    The Jewish leaders who rejected Jesus have shown by their not believing, that these are not His sheep - the ones the Father did not will to give to the Son.
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are repeating what I just stated. What is the issue?
     
  11. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The promise Spiritual life is only for the New Covenant by Faith in Jesus:

    Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

    The promise of the indwelling Spirit to give us life was not given until Lord Jesus was glorified.

    John 7:37-39 (WEB)
    37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

    John 4:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine
    13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

    The Spirit of Christ IN you is when regeneration begins. We only receive the Spirit by faith.

    Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    The Spirit IN us is how we are made alive.

    That is why Lord Jesus said that by faith in Him we are turned from death to life, darkness to light.

    John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. (Isaiah 60:1). He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

    John 12:46 (WEB)
    46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

    Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
     
  12. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    I don't conceptualize the Christian life as you have here. I see laid out in Scripture a very different sort of experience with God. When I was born-again by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11) in response to my placing my trust in Christ as my Saviour and Lord (Romans 10:9-10), I obtained a spiritual "inheritance" in Christ (Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 2:6-7; Galatians 4:1-6), a new spiritual life and identity in him (2 Corinthians 5:17), that was given to me in the Person of the Holy Spirit. At the moment of my conversion, I obtained in the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) redemption, justification, sanctification, freedom from the power of sin and Self (1 Corinthians 1:30Romans 6; Galatians 5:24), and have become a "temple" of God (1 Corinthians 6:19).

    All of these things I obtained, not by dint of my own effort, but as a gift of God. Spiritually, in Christ, all of the things Scripture says about me as a child of God are fully accomplished facts - my spiritual position in Christ - bestowed upon me in the Person of the Spirit. By faith, I live these realities out in my daily condition (or living), not in order to make them true of me, but because they are already true of me. I live out who I am in Christ because I am in him, not because I can work my way into being in him.

    I am "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6) and ONLY in him am I accepted by God. If I am not fully justified and sanctified by Christ, I cannot be one of God's children. ONLY Christ's perfect righteousness and atoning sacrifice can satisfy God's holiness and justice. What, then, can I add to what is already perfect? Nothing. Nothing at all. God is totally satisfied with Christ and so long as I am in him, justified and sanctified in him (1 Corinthians 1:30), God is satisfied with me, too. Therefore, my salvation, who is Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5), and in whom I "live, and move, and have my being" is secure, not resting upon my good works, but upon the perfect Saviour.

    And so, Paul frequently writes to the various believers in the Early Church to be who they are in Christ, to live in accord with their already fully accomplished identity in him. He doesn't appeal to fear in motivating them to righteousness, to threats of lost salvation, but to their identity, their spiritual position, in Christ. Romans 6 is a prime example of this, or Ephesians 4:17-24, or Colossians 2:6-15, and so on.

    Really, it is, in my view, a sort of blasphemy to think that one can earn through righteous, persevering self-effort what it took the perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ to obtain. Such blasphemous thinking elevates the believer to the place of co-Saviour, making their efforts to live righteously the key to their being saved. This is like having Rembrandt paint a masterpiece for you and and then adding your own touches of paint to it so its really yours. Doing so can do nothing but lessen - ruin, even - the painting! But this is what works-salvation does. It adds the creature's "paint," their self-effort, to the "masterpiece" of Christ's salvific work on the cross! What hubris to think one can add anything to the perfection of Christ's atonement, or that such an addition is in the least necessary. But this is the prideful, self-centered essence of works-salvation.

    Romans 4:5
    5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    Romans 11:5-6
    5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
    6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


    Galatians 3:2-7
    2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
    4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
    5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
    6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
    7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.


    Colossians 2:20-23
    20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations
    21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
    22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
    23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
     
  13. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ??? That is what I stated.
     
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    sets777

    Maybe not in those exact words but its reasonably and scripturally implied. It definitely states the reason why some dont believe is because they are not Sheep.

    Friend you sound confused. The Sheep have been given to the Son by the Father, which ensures they believe, because they will be given Faith to believe Phil 1:29

    29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    You got it backwards, God gave Christ the Sheep first, and their believing was based on that.
     
  15. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with all you wrote, all God's blessings come through Faith in Lord Jesus.

    You misunderstand what faith means according to all the Scriptures, many of which were quoted for you.

    You reject repentance as an essential necessity of faith, and so reject the faith of the Gospel.
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like to me, you base salvation/eternal life on man, on what man does ! Thats heresy friend if you do. Believing is an act of the man, a work !
     
  17. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I see nothing reasonable about assuming something the Scripture does not teach or state.

    This is your assumption.

    Read Philippians 1:29 in context and you will see that "grant" does not mean "giving as a gift", but rather, it is a "given" reality to not only believe but also to suffer for Him.

    Philippians 1:27-30
    27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel 28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. 29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, 30 since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

    Yes, the Father gives the Sheep to Christ, but not so they can believe, but because they believe. That is the will of the Father - To give to the Son those who believe.

    John 6:38-40
    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
     
  18. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    99% of that Post is pure Scripture. Are you saying that God's Word is heresy?
     
  19. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Matthew 10:21-22
    21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
    22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


    And why would such endurance occur? Because the one who endures to the end is indwelt by the Spirit - saved, born again - who enables by His power such endurance (1 Corinthians 1:7-9; Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.). Enduring to the end, is a manifestation of genuine salvation not the means of it.

    This is true of every other verse you might supply that appears to you to support a works-salvation doctrine.

    Strawman. I've never suggested genuine faith is not revealed by such things, only that such manifestation is the result of salvation, not the means of it.

    Where does Jesus speak of repentance in these verses? Where does the word "repent" or "repentance" or "repenting" or "repented" appear in them? Nowhere. Why, then, offer these verses as some sort of answer to my definition of repentance? They say nothing about repentance!

    It is symbolic of a believer's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 3:3, etc.), in which union the born-again believer is made "dead unto sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus." It symbolizes a fully accomplished state-of-affairs spiritually in the believer that they are, by faith, to count on as done and true (Romans 6:11).

    ??? All Scripture comes from him.

    This is works-salvation. Your first statement in the above quotation is entirely correct. But then you twist it, making good works - however much they might originate in faith - the basis upon which "God will give you the free gift of eternal life." How is the gift free in any normal sense of the word, if one earns it by "living to serve God unto a holy life"?

    How is it that you are so blind to this incredible contradiction in your statements? Yes, a "true Gospel faith" is demonstrated by a denial of self and sin, but such a demonstration does not - it cannot - obtain one's salvation; it is merely the by-product of a spiritually-regenerated life, not the means to it. I can only demonstrate skill that I already possess; I can, for example, only demonstrate that I am a musician if I am, in fact, possessed of the abilities of a musician. I must be in order to do. This is what the Bible states about my life as a believer in Christ. I can only work out what God has first worked into me (Philippians 2:12-13). I live like a born-again believer because I am a born-again believer.

    You do as so many believers do and conflate the effects of repentance, of a change of mind, with repentance itself. Repentance leads to faith and behaviour that reflects one's change of mind, but repentance is not, at its core, these "reflections."

    In any case, your list here does what you've done all along: make the fruit of a changed life the means of it; make the apples an apple tree produces necessary to it being an apple tree, rather than merely inevitable to being a mature and healthy tree.

    Here's a great example of the equivocation you make with the term "faith," using it to mean deeds rather than belief. You see the close, hand-in-glove fit of saving faith and works and talk as though, being so tightly-related, they are synonymous. But they aren't. However close the relationship of faith and works, they are no more the same than a hand and a glove are the same.

    I've given you two verses that indicate you're wrong.

    Since I didn't cite 1 Corinthians 12:9, why are you talking about it? Strawman.

    This is just a form of Strawman arguing. You don't actually argue about what is written in Romans 12:3 but attempt to dismiss it by way of comments on another passage entirely.

    Unlike 1 Corinthians 12:9, Romans 12:3 clearly indicates that God has given to each believer a measure of faith, not a special spiritual dispensation of faith to only a few - which is why, I suspect, you attempt to dismiss Romans 12:3 by way of 1 Corinthians 12:9.

    This is all entirely beside the point I made from verse 25 of 2 Timothy 2, a deflection formed of a multitude of off-point verbiage.

    Paul says quite plainly that God gives each of us "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." He illuminates our minds to His truth, the truth of the Gospel, and enables us to change our minds - repent - of our Christless thinking and living (1 Corinthians 2:10-13). But such repentance is integral to believing the Gospel; one cannot believe unto salvation without a change of mind about the Gospel, first.

    So, what is my soteriological perspective, then? It isn't Reformed.

    The Calvinist is not wrong on every point, by the way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  20. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Works surely are the fruits of a true Gospel Faith in Jesus.

    When we repent and put our faith in Jesus (Acts 20:29-21), we are committing to deny serving the carnal mind as a slave to its desires (Romans 6), and we now commit our entire lives to listen to and serve our rightful Master, Lord Jesus into a holy life of righteousness and love, just as Baptism represents (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-14), and as Lord Jesus taught us (Luke 9:23-26; Luke 14:33; Matthew 13:44-45).

    This total change of purpose in life is how we reveal our love for Jesus (John 14:21; John 14:23).

    This total change in purpose means we are now living out a holy life of righteousness and love demonstrated by good works.

    Why? Because that is our purpose for living - to follow Jesus, observing all things He has commanded of us.

    By this faith the Spirit indwells us (Acts 5:32) to lead our faith to victory, but only as we continue to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who indwells us by faith (John 7:37-39; Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 6:7-9.

    In fact, becoming disciples of Jesus is the purpose of the Gospel preaching work (Matthew 28:19-20).

    Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

    This faith is, therefore, a new life in Christ Jesus demonstrated in holiness (separate or sanctified) onto God into a life of righteousness and love (Romans 6:1-5; Colossians 3:1-14; Ephesians 4:17-32).

    This holiness results in eternal life (Romans 6:21-22; Hebrews 12:14-17).

    Good works necessarily flow from this repentance and faith – the Gospel Faith. This is called ‘walking in the Spirit’ (Galatians 5:13-25; Romans 8:3-4), and is how we abide or remain in Christ Jesus to be saved (John 15:1-10).

    Blessings
     
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