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"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    I wrote: You seem to have a low view of the power of the Spirit at work in a born-again person.

    BCsenior replied: I seem to have a high view of the power of free will in everyone's life.

    Since you don't deny my observation, it seems you're agreeing with it.

    Whatever view you may have of human free agency, if it necessitates a weak, diminished Holy Spirit, your view is unbiblical and in error.
     
  2. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Big deal. Unless you can properly synthesize them with all the Scripture that explicitly and implicitly denies works-salvation, your ten verses help your false doctrine not at all.
     
  3. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Read my other posts to this thread.
     
  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I find those levels misleading and am also not sure if level 1 qualifies as faith. (for example, "I agree with what you're saying on paper, but do not trust you.")

    In general, the word for faith can also be translated as trust, there needs to be a bond of trust for the person to be open to receive the Holy Spirit. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what makes someone born again.

    By your scale, John 3:16 would most likely speak of Level 2, (though I may re assess based on your future applications of said scale) level 3 sounds like a maturity of trust, but is usually called surrender.
     
  5. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Level 3's belief/faith is a gift almost exclusively possessed
    only by those whom Jesus has baptized with the Holy Spirit.
    (There are 9 of these spiritual power gifts described in 1 Cor 12).
    Do you personally know anyone who has any of these 9?
     
  6. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about a righteousness gained through some form of legal obedience?

    Or the perfect righteousness of Christ received in the form of a gift?

    Romans 5:17
    For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
     
  7. John Mullally

    John Mullally Well-Known Member

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    Before I got on this site, I was not aware that it is commonly believed God predestined many to eternal fire.

    "Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. If any one alleges that no necessity is laid upon them by the providence of God, but rather that they are created by him in that condition, because he foresaw their future depravity, he says something, but does not say enough. Ancient writers, indeed, occasionally employ this solution, though with some degree of hesitation. The Schoolmen, again, rest in it as if it could not be gainsaid. I, for my part, am willing to admit, that mere prescience lays no necessity on the creatures; though some do not assent to this, but hold that it is itself the cause of things. But Valla, though otherwise not greatly skilled in sacred matters, seems to me to have taken a shrewder and more acute view, when he shows that the dispute is superfluous since life and death are acts of the divine will rather than of prescience. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.”
    (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  8. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God recognized thousands of Old Testament believers, who lived under the Law, who loved God before the New Covenant regeneration of the Spirit.

    Exodus 20:4-7 (WEB)
    4 “You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
     
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Until you anticipate revelation.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Citizen of Covidstan. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Regeneration isn’t New Covenant.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Citizen of Covidstan. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ???
     
  12. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one disagrees with that.

    How you define "control" is the issue. How God controls things, especially as regards salvation, is clearly understood but what God revealed about Himself in the Scriptures.

    Many of these Scriptures that we have already read together in our messages.

    Blessings
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Until you cannot distinguish between Genesis 15:5 and 1 Cor 15:1-4
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Citizen of Covidstan. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Mkay.
     
  15. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    www.soteriology101.com

    There are soteriological alternatives much superior to Calvinism.
     
  16. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one is teaching a works salvation, rather, you misunderstand what “faith” means according to the Scriptures, which all the NT Scriptures – from Matthew to Revelation – clearly teach, so really hard to miss unless you are deliberately refusing to acknowledge.

    Repentance is part of the Gospel Faith.

    2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB)
    For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

    Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) 20 how I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

    A true repentance and faith are demonstrated by denying the old life, and following Lord Jesus into holy life of righteousness and love (Romans 6) – that is the New Life in which good works are and must be produced:

    Acts 26:19-20 (WEB)19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

    Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

    Not that works save us, but that if our faith is in Lord Jesus we are now following HIM. That is what the Great Commission of the Gospel preaching is all about:

    Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB)
    19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

    For instance, the Gospel Faith is instructed to the Church about living in the Faith. The directions to the Church are given to show how they are to live in the Faith they profess – in the Colossians 3:1-17, which is basically a repeat of Romans 6 with similar language, and is also like so many other Scriptures.

    I need not comment on it, because the Scripture itself describes the faith. If that faith describes you, then you are saved.

    Colossians 3:1-17 (WEB)
    1 If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory.
    5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 For these things’ sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
    7 You also once walked in those, when you lived in them; 8 but now you also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and shameful speaking out of your mouth. 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings,
    10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all.
    12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do.
    14 Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord.
    17 Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.

    That is the description of faith which Aiki does not want anyone to see.

    Your responses show a deliberate unwillingness to comprehend how the Scriptures define “faith,” even though I listed many of those Scriptures for you.

    The Passages are for all to see that I provided for. God calls that “faith,” you call it “works.” Not a difficult choice to make for me.

    No one disagrees. The gift of God is God’s saving grace, which is not accessed by works, but by faith (Romans 5:1-2).

    The quote you gave does not explain how or when God saves us, and does not even mention faith, but many other Scriptures do (John 3:14-18) for example. So you are not looking at the context of Scripture, rather, you are avoiding the obvious.

    We are not saved by works, but by grace through faith (Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2). But you misunderstand what a Gospel Faith means according to all the Scriptures.

    According to Titus 3:4-7, regeneration began after Lord Jesus appeared to save us from our sins – that’s the New Covenant.

    The Old Testament Saints believed before Christ Jesus appeared to bring salvation. That agrees with the Old Testament prophesies, that regeneration of the heart and spirit was to begin in the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    poured out on us” refers to the Spirit indwelling those who believed (Acts 2:38) – to give them life. The pouring out of the Spirit first occurred in the Upper Room where the believers were gathered, awaiting the promise of the Spirit. They already believed before the Spirit was poured out on them to give them life.

    Therefore, the regeneration (spiritual life) is only given by the indwelling Spirit, and the Spirit is only poured out on Believers.

    The Spirit did not begin indwelling the believers to give them Spiritual life until AFTER Lord Jesus was glorified.

    John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
    37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

    Therefore the spiritually dead are made alive, from darkness to light, by faith in Jesus – not before:

    John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. (Isaiah 60:1). He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

    No one here is proclaiming a works-salvation. I see nothing in the quote you provided that denies the fact that the proof of our faith is refined and tested, and that your responsibility is to live in faith so be kept by the power of God.

    I already responded to the New Birth of the Spirit earlier for Titus 3:4-6.

    However, notice what 1 Peter 1:3 states about being born again:

    1 Peter 2:3 who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

    When was Lord Jesus resurrected from the dead? Was that not in the New Covenant?

    Born Again” is only for the New Covenant, after Christ Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

    Born Again,” just like “Regeneration” (Titus 3:4-6) is for the New Covenant – after Lord Jesus appeared to save us.

    All the Old Testament saints believed in God before regeneration/born again of the New Covenant.

    The explanation you gave does not hold up, because Romans 6 is explaining the faith that Romans 5 mentions.

    Baptism represents dying to the old life, and rising to a new life of serving Christ in a holy and righteous life. . .

    IF that represents your faith, then you will take part in the resurrection of Lord Jesus.

    Paul is directing the Church how they are to live in the Faith they now profess to be saved – not that God lives out your faith for you.

    The result of a faith expressed in living out a holy life means you receive the free gift of eternal life – just as Paul is instructing and admonishing in Romans 6.

    Romans 6:19-23 (KJV)
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Romans 6 is very clear to understand.


    A true Gospel faith is demonstrated by denying the old life of sin (Verse 21), and now living to serve God unto a holy life (Verse 22). That is the only faith by which God will give you the free gift of eternal life (Verse 22; Verse 23).

    IF that describes your faith, then you are presently saved. IF you endure in the faith to the end, you will take part in the Resurrection of Lord Jesus - the result is eternal life.

    One has to endure in the faith, demonstrated in a holy life before God, to receive eternal salvation or eternal life in the end.

    Many warnings in Scripture to continue in the faith to remain saved.

    One has to endure in the faith, demonstrated in a holy life before God, to receive eternal salvation or eternal life in the end, just as all the Scriptures keep warning, teaching, and admonishing as your responsibility before a holy God.

    1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
    16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

    Romans 11:19-22 (WEB)
    20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

    Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
    7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
    8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
    But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

    Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Bolding mine
    34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB)
    4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
    He who overcomes
    will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  17. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Easy to say. And if you choose to believe that, then that is your free will choice. The Scriptures teach that regeneration is for the New Covenant. You have to actually make an effort to reject the many Scriptures in God's Holy Word that discuss Regeneration in the New Covenant to hold onto your belief.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Citizen of Covidstan. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Jesus told Nic that he must be born again. Any idea what covenant they were under when He said that?
     
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Regeneration has been around as long as men had God given Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Abel had Faith Heb 11:4
    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    In addition it had to be a spiritual sacrifice acceptable through Jesus Christ 1 Pet 2:5

    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I don't exactly subscribe to the pentecostal/charismatic doctrine on this.

    There are gifts that are cultivated versions of an initial gift.

    If someone was gifted with faith this is a relationship oriented gift, because without trust, you cannot have the wholesome kind of relationships.

    Everyone has some faith, but God might gift someone a boost to their overall trust. (As implied in verse 9) However, like with everyone else, even those with a boost need to develop it.
     
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