He says 'Christianity' today was not Yeshua's original teachings

codemonkey

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There is an idea out there that the gospels are not true to the teachings of Jesus himself, and Christs actual teachings were more in line with the gospel of Thomas, supposedly. I am not sure what the idea of this concept is called but there is a fellow named Lewis Keitzer who seems to be perpetuating the idea with his research. I am wondering what is the counter evidence to show that the teachings in the gospels are the actual and accurate representation of the true Yeshua. Here's a video from him:

His video here says the teachings of Yeshua differ from that of modern christianity, because modern Christianity was actually doctrinized by paul. He goes on more in depth with a few other videos, although interesting, not sure if they really hold basis. That's why im posting, im wondering if there is any validity to his theories? If not what is the evidence that we can trust the gospels as the original teachings to christ?

If this is not ok to post here please let me know where I can post it to get actual answers. Thanks.
 
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jenny1972

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I'd agree but he basically says paul created christianity, and all the doctrine was basically constructed by paul in contrast to yeshuas actual teachings.

yes it was many people agree thats true , and are learning about the Gospel of Thomas as people become more aware thanks to easy access to the truth about the history of Christianity through the internet we will abandon the mythology that has developed because of Paul , and return to what Christianity was in the beginning and the truth . all truth will come to light no lie can live forever ;)
 
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jenny1972

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There is an idea out there that the gospels are not true to the teachings of Jesus himself, and Christs actual teachings were more in line with the gospel of Thomas, supposedly. I am not sure what the idea of this concept is called but there is a fellow named Lewis Keitzer who seems to be perpetuating the idea with his research. I am wondering what is the counter evidence to show that the teachings in the gospels are the actual and accurate representation of the true Yeshua. Here's a video from him:

His video here says the teachings of Yeshua differ from that of modern christianity, because modern Christianity was actually doctrinized by paul. He goes on more in depth with a few other videos, although interesting, not sure if they really hold basis. That's why im posting, im wondering if there is any validity to his theories? If not what is the evidence that we can trust the gospels as the original teachings to christ?

If this is not ok to post here please let me know where I can post it to get actual answers. Thanks.

The Gospel According to Thomas, (or the Gospel of Thomas), is an early Christian non-canonical sayings-gospel that many scholars believe provides insight into the oral gospel traditions. It was discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in December 1945 among a group of books known as the Nag Hammadi library. Scholars speculate that the works were buried in response to a letter from Bishop Athanasius declaring a strict canon of Christian scripture.

The Coptic-language text, the second of seven contained in what modern-day scholars have designated as Codex II, is composed of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas is very different in tone and structure from other New Testament apocrypha and the four Canonical Gospels. Unlike the canonical Gospels, it is not a narrative account of the life of Jesus; instead, it consists of sayings attributed to Jesus, sometimes stand-alone, sometimes embedded in short dialogues or parables.
 
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jenny1972

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Well, I doubt there is much doubt in anyone's mind that Jesus NEVER intended the convoluted mess we've made of Christianity today.

Yeshua said,
Do not lie and do not do what you hate.
All things are disclosed before heaven.
There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed,
nothing covered that will remain undisclosed.

(from the Gospel of Thomas)
 
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pshun2404

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There is an idea out there that the gospels are not true to the teachings of Jesus himself, and Christs actual teachings were more in line with the gospel of Thomas, supposedly. I am not sure what the idea of this concept is called


Carefully orchestrated heretical apostate nonsense! The Nag Hamadi find is a collection of discarded gnostic texts. The key here is twofold:


a) Discarded

b) Gnostic (not Christian)

c)

But because it is important for the Anti-Christ spirit of the allegedly Christian “Critical School” (who are hardly Christians) to discredit the Gospels, the Authors of all Biblical Texts, and the Jesus presented to us by His apostles (who’s minds were opened to the scriptures by Him).


The alleged Christian “Critical School” is a movement by scholars who try to create alternative explanations of history for the cause, ignoring what we have as actual historical evidence. This group (chief of whom at this time are the members and sad but willing victims of the Jesus Seminar opinions…who in the end roll colored stones to determine whether Jesus sis or sis not actually say many things…most of whom do not believe in many of the essential Christian doctrines passed on by the Apostles themselves to their earliest followers appointed to lead the next generation).


In the History of the Church written about a decade before the Council of Nicea, the church Historian Eusibius (whose collection of works still included an original Hebrew/Aramaic Matthew which still existed for Jerome to see) after reporting about the books always accepted as Legitimate Apostolic works by ALL, has this to say:


Among the disputed writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles; and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books. And among these some have placed also the Gospel according to the Hebrews, with which those of the Hebrews that have accepted Christ are especially delighted. And all these may be reckoned among the disputed books.


But we have nevertheless felt compelled to give a catalogue of these also, distinguishing those works which according to ecclesiastical tradition are true and genuine and commonly accepted, from those others which, although not canonical but disputed, are yet at the same time known to most ecclesiastical writers-we have felt compelled to give this catalogue in order that we might be able to know both these works and those that are cited by the heretics under the name of the apostles, including, for instance, such books as the Gospels of Peter, of Thomas, of Matthias, or of any others besides them, and the Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles, which no one belonging to the succession of ecclesiastical writers has deemed worthy of mention in his writings. And further, the character of the style is at variance with apostolic usage, and both the thoughts and the purpose of the things that are related in them are so completely out of accord with true orthodoxy that they clearly show themselves to be the fictions of heretics. Wherefore they are not to be placed even among the rejected writings, but are all of them to be cast aside as absurd and impious.

(Eusebius, the Church History 3:25)


So we see here that not only are these final works disputed but to be cast away as fictional lies even though some of them contain some of the words and passages found in legitimate New Testament works. The gospel of Thomas was first rejected as a gnostic heresy as soon as it was written in the 2nd century (a century after Thomas was killed) by Irenaeus and NO CHURCH founded by the Apostles EVER accepted the gospel of Thomas OR GNOSTICISM in any way. Gnostic sayings like “The male shall become the female and the female the male” slipped in among actual words they took from the four always legitimate always accepted by all gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


In the writings of the early church fathers we see stories passed down about the ever ongoing fight to prove the gnostics were NEVER considered a wing of Christianity. One tells us that John wrote his gospel partly to speak to the unbelieving Jews is exhile and as a response to Gnosticism and their false teachers and prophets. One tells of John commanding his disciples to flee from a bath house as now defiled because Cerinthus (his gnostic opponent) has entered in.


Hippolytus wrote in his Refutation of All Heresies 5.7.20:

“…of a nature which is both hidden and revealed at the same time and which they call the thought-for kingdom of heaven which is in a human being. They transmit a tradition concerning this in the Gospel entitled "According to Thomas," which states expressly, "The one who seeks me will find me in children of seven years and older, for there, hidden in the fourteenth aeon, I am revealed."


Origen lists the "Gospel according to Thomas" as being among the heterodox apocryphal gospels known to him (Hom. in Luc. 1), and In the 4th century Church fathers it Is revealed that the Gospel of Thomas was highly valued by Mani and his followers. Cyril of Jerusalem mentioned a "Gospel of Thomas" twice in his Catechesis: "The Manichæans also wrote a Gospel according to Thomas, which being tinctured with the fragrance of the evangelic title corrupts the souls of the simple sort." and "Let none read the Gospel according to Thomas: for it is the work not of one of the twelve Apostles, but of one of the three wicked disciples of Manes


Now truly truly I say unto you….as the earliest writings of the earliest fathers unfold (who were either taught by the Apostles or by those the Apostles taught) there are ONLY four legitimate gospels which come to us IN THE ORDER in which they were written and these are Matthew (originally in Hebrew/Aramaic), Mark (which are the non-chronological memoirs of Peter), Luke-Acts (a later 1st century history which interviewed witnesses and used extant records undoubtedly Matthew and Mark being among them), and John’s (as I said a work to complete, educate diaspora Jews, and a refutation of gnostic heresy)….


Now the only way one should dismiss the credibility of such a witness is if one can impeach their credibility by an equal and adequate compilation of evidence (which no one ever has and never will). We only can ASSUME they lied if we first ASSUME Matthew was not Matthew, that he did not write first, and that John was not John and did not write last and try to Greekify (by misapplying usage of terms) the texts.


These apostates in our time have worked hard for over a century to lie and twist and misrepresent the ONLY history we actually have for their purpose which begins with the premise…”Did God REALLY say…” and ends with one who swallows there poison settling for picking and choosing what they will accept or reject and finally as gods unto themselves (genesis 3:5) deciding good and evil as is right in their own eyes.


The Shofar has been blown….but be not easily persuaded beloved because of the logic fallacies of “Appeal to authority” and “Argumentum ad Populum”….The Spirit of God is much greater than either of these….


In His love

Paul
 
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Resha Caner

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People love mystery. They love to think they've discovered something hidden and amazing. But, there's nothing new under the sun. Regardless, the fastest way to help people find something is to hide it. Sad as it would be for Christianity to experience a drastic decline in membership around the world, I wonder if the resulting scarcity wouldn't prompt people to seek it out.
 
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dqhall

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The Gospel of Thomas does not contain much new Gospel material and contains distorted and errant text. Some of the NT verses in modern translations been corrupted in the process of copying and translation. Words were lost. I imagine entire letters and written biographical descriptions of Jesus were lost. Some of his sermons were recorded, remain true and are an inheritance for modern believers. Some of the context of Jewish life in the first century may be found by studying Roman era Judaism in the Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, and Josephus.

We have Christian writings from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as much as Paul. Jesus' teachings were passed to those who wrote the Gospels. Matthew and John were eyewitnesses. Paul did not write the Gospels, however he met the apostles and was an associate of Luke and John Mark. Paul recognized Jesus was teaching a new covenant not totally reliant on the OT regulations. Some of the Jews wanted the Gentile believers to convert to Judaism. Paul indicated circumcision was not necessary as it is a change in outward appearance and thus a superficial change not as important as inward changes. The Jewish laws of cleanliness kept Jews and Gentiles segregated. There is evidence from the Gospels that Jesus did not highly regard Talmudic laws for washing and dipping pots as these were laws of men and not of God, nor did his disciples always wash their hands as some devout Jews did. The Jews avoided Gentile households for fear of ritual uncleanness and to avoid the reprobate behavior of some of the pagans. Paul went into Gentile communities and homes without fear.
 
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Job8

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There is an idea out there that the gospels are not true to the teachings of Jesus himself, and Christ's actual teachings were more in line with the gospel of Thomas, supposedly.
Since the Gospel of Thomas is essentially a heretical Gnostic fabrication, anyone promoting that spurious "gospel" is simply attacking the Bible and Bible Christianity. All these attacks are from Satan to undermine confidence in the true Word of God.
 
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brinny

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Since the Gospel of Thomas is essentially a heretical Gnostic fabrication, anyone promoting that spurious "gospel" is simply attacking the Bible and Bible Christianity. All these attacks are from Satan to undermine confidence in the true Word of God.

Indeed.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi Codemonkey, first off, WELCOME TO CF .. :wave: You wrote:
...there is a fellow named Lewis Keitzer who............

...............runs an organization called The Home Temple. Here is an except from his homepage:

"Home Temple seminary training is based on the historical spiritual teachings of Mar Yeshua, the Master Jesus. These are NOT the teachings of Christianity." (emphasis mine)
Why are we discussing this here since they admit openly that what they teach is NOT Christian :scratch:

BTW, here is an interesting passage from the Gospel of Thomas (just in case you've never read it):

Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." ~Gospel of Thomas (114)

Yours and His,
David
 
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brinny

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Hi Codemonkey, first off, WELCOME TO CF .. :wave: You wrote:


...............runs an organization called The Home Temple. Here is an except from his homepage:

"Home Temple seminary training is based on the historical spiritual teachings of Mar Yeshua, the Master Jesus. These are NOT the teachings of Christianity." (emphasis mine)
Why are we discussing this here since they admit openly that what they teach is NOT Christian?

Yours and His,
David

good question.
 
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hedrick

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The majority view (even among critical scholars) seems to be that Thomas is late. While some of its sayings may be original, I don't think most people think it's going to affect our picture of Jesus that much.

Now, if we found a copy of Q ...
 
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dqhall

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The Gospel of Thomas was found with other codices in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. It contains verses similar to the four Gospels and some that are not from the four Gospels.

From the Gospel of Thomas (Gnostic Society Library): Jesus said, "Preach from your housetops that which you will hear in your ear. For no one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel..."
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I'm inclined to be skeptical of claims like that reported to be of Lewis Keitzer. It's been done before. In my opinion, it's been done to death.

The pages of history, especially Christian history, are full of people who proclaimed Jesus has been removed and a false image put in His place. Then go on to tell all who will listen they (the proclaimer) has all the answers and will tell everyone for low monthly payments of $29.95 - or so.

The second reason for being skeptical is the results of what we understand as Christianity. Not that everyone who believes becomes rich, or is healed of all ailments - including flat feet and old age - or even in the sense that every believer suddenly (magically?) stops having improper thoughts about others, or riches, or is never ungenerous to the homeless or never sasses their mother. Those who follow Christ are transformed into a better sort of human being; more caring and in that regard more God like.

Obviously "Christianity" is not perfect. Nor are Christians perfect. However, the answer is to follow God more closely and take His salvation more seriously. (We're going to blow off the crucifixion of Jesus for a cheap thrill?) The answer is not in discarding the Bible and following some snake oil vendor.

Ask Korah.
 
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dqhall

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I'm inclined to be skeptical of claims like that reported to be of Lewis Keitzer. It's been done before. In my opinion, it's been done to death.

The pages of history, especially Christian history, are full of people who proclaimed Jesus has been removed and a false image put in His place. Then go on to tell all who will listen they (the proclaimer) has all the answers and will tell everyone for low monthly payments of $29.95 - or so.

The second reason for being skeptical is the results of what we understand as Christianity. Not that everyone who believes becomes rich, or is healed of all ailments - including flat feet and old age - or even in the sense that every believer suddenly (magically?) stops having improper thoughts about others, or riches, or is never ungenerous to the homeless or never sasses their mother. Those who follow Christ are transformed into a better sort of human being; more caring and in that regard more God like.

Obviously "Christianity" is not perfect. Nor are Christians perfect. However, the answer is to follow God more closely and take His salvation more seriously. (We're going to blow off the crucifixion of Jesus for a cheap thrill?) The answer is not in discarding the Bible and following some snake oil vendor.

Ask Korah.
I have been reading the Bible for years. I went through a phase where I read only the Gospel of Mark. It was easier as it only has 16 chapters. I can yet remember parts of the NT. One day I was reading the Bible and I thought I should read other books as well. Surely if there is such a thing as knowledge and prophesy, it might be in other books as well. I went to read Biblical archaeology, ancient Near Eastern history and ancient Egypt studies. I had access to some of the finest libraries in the Washington, D.C. metro area for over 15 years. That led me to believe there were some wisdom writings outside the Bible and some written before the Bible. I yet use the Bible, but I do not worship it. Another time I read the epistles over and over. I do not go back to the OT as much. Some of the violence in it caused me problems when I was young. The Gospel of John is recommended as less violent. My reading list expanded to business, science, health and technology, for these things may be profitable.

A prudent person may find some of the teachings of Yeshua are in the Bible.
 
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Catherineanne

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There is an idea out there that the gospels are not true to the teachings of Jesus himself, and Christs actual teachings were more in line with the gospel of Thomas, supposedly. I am not sure what the idea of this concept is called but there is a fellow named Lewis Keitzer who seems to be perpetuating the idea with his research. I am wondering what is the counter evidence to show that the teachings in the gospels are the actual and accurate representation of the true Yeshua. Here's a video from him:

His video here says the teachings of Yeshua differ from that of modern christianity, because modern Christianity was actually doctrinized by paul. He goes on more in depth with a few other videos, although interesting, not sure if they really hold basis. That's why im posting, im wondering if there is any validity to his theories? If not what is the evidence that we can trust the gospels as the original teachings to christ?

If this is not ok to post here please let me know where I can post it to get actual answers. Thanks.

The gospel according to Mr Keitzer?

I don't think so.
 
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Catherineanne

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The majority view (even among critical scholars) seems to be that Thomas is late. While some of its sayings may be original, I don't think most people think it's going to affect our picture of Jesus that much.

Now, if we found a copy of Q ...

Even if that did happen, it would prove nothing.

The canon of Scripture is the canon.
 
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