• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

He alone is God

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +5,840
    Messianic
    Hezekiah, when faced with the Assyrians, who had already conquered other nations round about, prayed that God not only deliver the people of Israel but also that by doing so would be recognised as "alone,,, [is].. God"

    If Israel were to do the same today, would the world watching recognise that "He alone is God".. ??
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    No, because Israel is no longer in covenant with God as the particular and special people and nation of God.

    However, if the Lord were to do that for the Church, that might be a different story.
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +5,840
    Messianic
    You haven't heard of the six day war then. You haven't seen such a tiny nation withstand the constant barrage and still prosper within.... There are greater victories for Israel. It just takes a greater faith. But for you to come here and slam Israel is an insult to the people of the Bible, and God for choosing them.
     
  4. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    The Old Covenant is over. Hebrews 8:13. If you understood a covenant, you would understand that they are no longer the covenant people.

    We are given an analogy of the relationship of God to the people of national Israel in Hosea as God describes himself as Spouse to the nation. Now when one spouse kills the other, as Israel did to Her divine Spouse when He presented Himself to them, can there still be an active an ongoing covenant relationship when one of them is dead?

    This is why Jesus spoke of the coming end of the covenant in Matthew 21: 33-46, the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen. They killed the son (Jesus) of the vineyard owner (God the Father) and for this, they were turned out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) as administrators, and destroyed, which happened in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem.

    I do not base my understanding of the Bible on current events, wars, politicians, or crazy people who babble on and on about some mythological thing called "The Rapture of the Church." I base it on the Bible, and I have just shared with you what the Bible and our Lord have said regarding national Israel.
     
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    The OT prophets, with one voice wrote of a time to come when God would bring the Jews back to their biblical homeland, never to be uprooted from it again. Huge swathes of OT scripture refer to this. In 1948 this biblical prophecy came true.
    However, the academically, not spiritually minded refuse to accept what the Bible so plainly states.
    And Zechariah plainly states in ch 12 of his book. A time is coming when Christ will reveal himself to the Jews, and they will look in him whom they pierced and mourn. And all the clans will accept him as their saviour.
    Try not to be too exasperated with those whose christianity is based in reliance upon the little grey cells, rather than the conviction of the Holy Spirit according to what the Bible plainly states
    God bless
     
  6. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married

    You just answered your own question. God delivered the current state of Israel and people are still wicked, God-hating sinners. Didn't work.
     
  7. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    What does it mean to you that the Old Covenant is over? What does it mean to you that Jesus said that national Israel would be taken out of the vineyard of the Lord for murdering the Son of God and replaced by a "new nation bringing forth fruits in due season"?

    What does it mean to you that St. Paul said that those who are of the faith in Messiah are the true children of Israel? What does it mean that St. Paul says those who are of faith are truly Jews?

    I gave you Bible....you don't like it and don't want to hear it.
     
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    Ezekiel 36:16-24, Joel ch3, Amos ch9:14&15, zech8:12&13, zech8:20-23, zech10:6-12, zech ch12, zech ch14 etc, etc, etc
     
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    I guess some believe God does not have the absolute right, if he so chooses to bring all Israelites, at a time still yet to come to accept Christ as their saviour. And so fulfill biblical prophecies
     
  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    I mean, Ezekiel ch 36:16-24 can only refer to the nation of Israel, no one else
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,012
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    Israel did not kill their spouse, Almighty YHWH. He cannot die. They killed His Son Yeshua who was mortal flesh and blood.
     
  12. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married

    First of all, I thank you for a very thoughtful reply using Scripture. Now here's the problem: you cannot divorce God's actions from the Covenant of God and the principles of the Covenant. Therefore, if we read something in the Bible, before we jump to conclusions, we have to take the Covenant in mind.

    I did read the passage from Ezekiel. There is a certain vagueness about exactly when Israel would be returned to the land. Could one not say that this had already happened before Christ Jesus was born, and that He stepped into this milieu to offer them the eternal Kingdom if they would receive Him as their spouse? Seems to me that this is possible, given His lament in Matthew 23:37-38.

    Secondly, you surely know that we cannot make Scripture contradict Scripture, therefore, we have to deal with the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen in which the Kingdom of God is taken from national Israel and given to " a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." in Matthew 21:33-45. In this parable, not only are the wicked husbandmen (national Israel) thrown out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) as the husbandmen and stewards of the vineyard, but they are destroyed. Let us look at that Greek word:

    apollymi
    Pronunciation
    ä-po'l-lü-mē (Key)
    1. to destroy
      1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

      2. render useless

      3. to kill

      4. to declare that one must be put to death

      5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

      6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2. to destroy
      1. to lose

    There is no indication that there will ever be a time in the future when they are returned and restored.

    There there is the curious verse of St. Paul in Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

    Very odd verse. How could one be of Israel and yet not of Israel? Because Israel does not mean "Jews." Let's rephrase that verse for better understanding:

    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel (believers), which are of Israel (national Israel).

    Now it makes entire sense, and it points to the fact that the true Israel is that of believers from every nation and kindred, not just Jews. The Jewish nation has ceased to be Israel, that is, true believers, and when they killed their divine Spouse, that ended the covenant and their privileged position among the nations of the world as keepers of the vineyard, according to Matthew 21.

    Unless you understand the Covenant of God, the principles of the Covenant, and how that worked out in history, you will, as so many have done, make mistakes regarding OT prophecies.
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    I will wager I understand the covenant better than you!
    There is no indication a time will come when israel will be restored?

    I will bring back my exiled people israel
    They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them
    They will plant vineyards and drink their wine
    They will make gardens and eat their fruit
    I will plant Israel in their own land
    Never again to be uprooted from the land i have given them
    Amos9:14&15

    This is what the sovereign Lord says:
    On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins with be rebuilt
    Ezekiel 36:33



    For I will take you out of the nation's; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your. impurities and idols
    Ezekiel36:24&25

    So you think you understand the NC?????
    Read on!!

    I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
    And I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
    Verses26&27

    So in your view, the above was fulfilled a long long time ago????
    When exactly??

    As for much else you quoted:

    They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the gentiles UNTIL( until)the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.
    Luke21:24

    I won't hang around for long here. As you choose to ignore huge swathes of what the OT prophets wrote, I'm sure you will also ignore what i write
     
  14. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

    +838
    United Kingdom
    Messianic
    Private
    Where have the MJ's / MG's gone? I thought only MJ's / MG's can teach or debate, but others may ask questions?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  15. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

    +838
    United Kingdom
    Messianic
    Private
    I doubt it somehow - if only, in part, for the reasons already shown in some responses to this thread :)
     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    As you continue to ignore what I wrote, especially about Matthew 21: 33-46. The congregation of God has been expanded now to include all nations and ethic peoples. In the Old Covenant, the edah of God was particularly found in the nation of Israel. To be part of the Covenant of God, to belong to the covenant people, you had to join Israel and be circumcised. No exceptions.

    But in the New Covenant, that ekklesia is found in the Jewish/Gentile congregation which was put under the authority of the Gentiles by the Son of David, Jesus the Messiah. When you find the congregation which can trace its lineage of authority all the way back to the Apostles, then you find the true ekklesia. And when you find the congregation which preaches the same truths that the Apostles taught, then you also find the Church.

    There are only two bodies in the world which can trace their authority lineage all the way back to the Apostles: Holy Orthodoxy and Catholicism. This is a principle of covenant: succession.

    But since you know the covenant so well, I am a bit curious to test you. What are the five working principles of a covenant?
     
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    Oh I addressed the scriptures you misunderstood in luke 21:24.
    You ignored mine!
    How can i put this simply.
    God has the absolute right, should be choose to do so, to turn the heart of every Jew alive, it a point in the future to accept his son as their saviour.

    What are the five working principles of a covenant???
    Lol.
    This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
    I will write my laws in their minD's
    And place them in their hearts.
    Then he adds
    Their sins and lawless deeds i will remember no more
    Heb10:16&17
    The above is the two Core principals on which the NC stands.

    As you refer to the Greek, would you like to do an exposition of the above verses?
     
  18. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
     
  19. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

    +1,286
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Thank you. You show that you need to study covenant more.

    The five working principles of a covenant are:

    1. Transcendence - the greater offers covenant to the lesser.

    2. Hierarchy - who's in charge?

    3. Ethics - what are the rules of this covenant?

    4. Oaths/Sanctions - Promises of fidelity to the ethics of the covenant and the curses which follow for breaking them.

    5. Succession - the covenant passes down from generation to generation.

    I would suggest that you look online for the I.C.E. Freebooks site and read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - Dominion by Covenant. He very nicely outlines all these principles with considerable reference to where they may be found in Scripture.
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    +1,577
    Christian
    Single
    And I thought you would be eager to do an exposition of the two Core principals on which the NC stands. As you hinted that some may not understand it. I thought, in the circumstances you would be only too glad to explain it.
     
Loading...