Having the Holy Spirit, does that mean I am saved?

[zoidar]

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You the one asking help in this matter, but you building walls where the conversation can't go and you haven't given enough information to help you realistically, so, Have you been Baptized was my question.

If you have not been Baptized then there is you answer.

There are tons of people that call themselves Christians who have never been Baptized,........... to make it clear, they are not Christians.

Look, I'm not trying to be ungrateful. It's kind of you wanting to help out. But it's not that I'm worried about my salvation, but I like to know more what to believe on this issue, having the Spirit and losing salvation.

 

[JIMINZ]

Look, I'm not trying to be ungreatful. It's kind of you wanting to help out. But it's not that I'm worried about my salvation, but I like to know more what to believe on this issue, having the Spirit and losing salvation.

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Then the answer is a simple one, if you do not believe in OSAS you can lose your Salvation, but if you believe in OSAS you cannot, ......Simple?

Now, if you really don't want to lose your Salvation, then you had better study what OSAS really means, not what you might believe now, or even what people might have told or taught you OSAS was all about, because your assumptions are wrong.

 

[Neogaia777]

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Then the answer is a simple one, if you do not believe in OSAS you can lose your Salvation, but if you believe in OSAS you cannot, ......Simple?

Now, if you really don't want to lose your Salvation, then you had better study what OSAS really means, not what you might believe now, or even what people might have told or taught you OSAS was all about, because your assumptions are wrong.

The response is simple, can we judge the state of another's salvation or of being in a "saved state"...? and/cause what does a "saved state" look like...? and can we even judge it in or about ourselves even, let alone anyone else..?. or can only God do so and/or do that...?

God Bless!

 

[Alithis]

well i dont go with osas because we are "being saved" and when the lord Jesus returns he will then save us from Gods wrath on the world .
in romans

Look, I'm not trying to be ungrateful. It's kind of you wanting to help out. But it's not that I'm worried about my salvation, but I like to know more what to believe on this issue, having the Spirit and losing salvation.

... i think in hebrews he deals wot thissome what

but please do go and read the text leading up to it and the text after it to balance the context

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

so while i fully believe the holy Spirit is the sealing down payment from God saying i have made this new covenant with you and here is my seal on it I will remain faithful to it ..just so -
the recipient ALSO must remain faithful to their part of the covenant so as not to annul the covenant .

 

[zoidar]

well i dont go with osas because we are "being saved" and when the lord Jesus returns he will then save us from Gods wrath on the world .
in romans

... i think in hebrews he deals wot thissome what

but please do go and read the text leading up to it and the text after it to balance the context

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

so while i fully believe the holy Spirit is the sealing down payment from God saying i have made this new covenant with you and here is my seal on it I will remain faithful to it ..just so -
the recipient ALSO must remain faithful to their part of the covenant so as not to annul the covenant .

The problem is if we believe we are saved if we have faith we have some kind of security.
As much as I agree with what you say I can't help thinking: How do we have security if our salvation depends on our obedience? Can I fully know if I live obedient? We fail all the time right.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the focus of belief is what makes the difference. Peter asked the crowd to believe that Jesus was their promised Messiah. This would have had a cascade effect on any sincere Jew of the day. They would then join Peter and the eleven and prepare for the coming of the Lord. Paul asks us to believe that Jesus died for our sin and was resurrected. This should have a cascade effect also as we realize complete forgiveness of sin and seek a closer relationship with Jesus in the Body of Christ.

Yes, you are saying there is more than simple belief.

Belief/mental assent alone isn't enough. That isn't even what Martin Luther meant when he proclaimed "sola fide".

Your example of the Jews is a good one. They would have had a religion they already practiced. Belief and active faith in God, trusting in Him, obeying His commandments. The ones who recognized Christ as Messiah went into the natural fulfillment of Judaism, which is Christianity.

Not merely belief. The demons don't just believe. They know who Christ is. And they are afraid. But that doesn't save them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The problem is if we believe we are saved if we have faith we have some kind of security.
As much as I agree with what you say I can't help thinking: How do we have security if our salvation depends on our obedience? Can I fully know if I live obedient? We fail all the time right.

Are we following Christ?

Yes we fail. We all do. What do we do? If we sincerely repent, try to do better, get back up and keep following Christ, we are doing what we are supposed to be doing.

If we start thinking God is somehow obligated to overlook our sins or He will accept us anyway, and we presume on God's grace by sinning without really being concerned about it - we are starting into dangerous territory.

But if we try not to sin and repent, that is the right attitude. As long as our heart and conscience are tender and turned toward God, we know we are on the right path.

 

[Neogaia777]

The problem is if we believe we are saved if we have faith we have some kind of security.
As much as I agree with what you say I can't help thinking: How do we have security if our salvation depends on our obedience? Can I fully know if I live obedient? We fail all the time right.

Having faith and growing and maintaining faith (and following love) IS "being obedient"...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Having faith and growing and maintaining faith (and following love) IS "being obedient"...

God Bless!

Now we know whatever is not of faith is sin, and very few of us are perfect in faith, if any... while we are in a state of growing and maturing in faith there is still some sin sometimes, it is only at the end of faith and with a faith perfected that you don't sin... On the way there it almost expected that you will or do sometimes (sin) funny thing is it is sometimes the sin that creates the adversity to increase the growth rate of the faith...

The only way a person has snowballs chance in you know where at keeping the law and being sinless and/or not sinning anymore, or perfect, is if it is by spirit and not the flesh, and by that I mean, a thing of the Spirit would be following after faith and love, (among other things), and by walking in faith and love, and in by working to, not only keep, but build and grow your faith, and follow after love, this is the only real way to get to the end goal of being sinless or truly keeping the law... The way Jesus did... But along the way we sin (he did not though)...

By trying to keep the law or be sinless with flesh, is fighting flesh with flesh and does not work... But this is the way many people are trying to do it and are teaching others how to do it as well and it's wrong... It has to be a work of God in you to become sinless (thing of the spirit), or perfect, or "whatever", and not because of you or your will or your effort (thing of the flesh) but God's (will and effort) in you (thing of the spirit)...

You cannot win fighting flesh with flesh, but sadly, if truth be told, this is what many are doing or are trying to do...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Some of us need to change our definition of Love and what Love makes us think about and what we associate with Love...

God Bless!

 

[Alithis]

The problem is if we believe we are saved if we have faith we have some kind of security.
As much as I agree with what you say I can't help thinking: How do we have security if our salvation depends on our obedience? Can I fully know if I live obedient? We fail all the time right.

we have the security that our obedience WILL certainly lead us increasingly into eternal life . yes its hard to fathom for me also . but belief -IS obedience . faith IS obedience .
the Father says ..this is my beloved son listen to him .. to hear and to do is to listen in belief . so we are assured that just as we believed and then obeyed in repentance and water baptism -now we receive his holy Spirit as he has promised, as security that he will ALSO do everything else he has Promised if we continue IN him obediently .. so we continue in him obediently and salvation is Ours THROUGH faith . ( faith being the action we take based upon what we truly believe )- how do we know we are obeying him. his holy Spirit in us convicts us of sin AND righteousness so we know not to do sin and we know To DO righteousness.
the sincerity of this path is certainly just as Christ said it would be .. a straight and narrow way to be walked reverently in fear and love and at the same time with an inexpressible joy that we are on it .
the warnings in scripture are many including working out (or walking out ) that salvation with fear and trembling because of the great danger of what awaits if we neglect SO GREAT a salvation. So it is a healthy state to be unsure and thus not frivolous in our faith .

 

[zoidar]

we have the security that our obedience WILL certainly lead us increasingly into eternal life . yes its hard to fathom for me also . but belief -IS obedience . faith IS obedience .
the Father says ..this is my beloved son listen to him .. to hear and to do is to listen in belief . so we are assured that just as we believed and then obeyed in repentance and water baptism -now we receive his holy Spirit as he has promised, as security that he will ALSO do everything else he has Promised if we continue IN him obediently .. so we continue in him obediently and salvation is Ours THROUGH faith . ( faith being the action we take based upon what we truly believe )- how do we know we are obeying him. his holy Spirit in us convicts us of sin AND righteousness so we know not to do sin and we know To DO righteousness.
the sincerity of this path is certainly just as Christ said it would be .. a straight and narrow way to be walked reverently in fear and love and at the same time with an inexpressible joy that we are on it .
the warnings in scripture are many including working out (or walking out ) that salvation with fear and trembling because of the great danger of what awaits if we neglect SO GREAT a salvation. So it is a healthy state to be unsure and thus not frivolous in our faith .

The Bible says Jesus commands aren't heavy to keep. This must be because we are to keep them out of love, we love him and don't want to break his heart. It's easy it becomes a burden: "I have to do this, I can't do this. I don't want to, but I have to." We are not supposed to live like that. We are to live in service because we love Christ. So the love of Christ must come first. How can we love Christ so we live in service? If we live in gratitude to him we live in love. How do we become thankful? Isn't that when we know we are forgiven? And how do we know we are forgiven? Some would say because the Bible says we are forgiven. Then the question arises: If my sins are forgiven, then how can obedience be a ground for salvation? Not saying it isn't, just asking.

 

[JacksBratt]

I was reborn 21th June 2010, it's not up for discussion. No it was not the date of my baptism.

I think there are plenty of verses that say you can lose salvation. I'm not interested to discuss this at all, because I know the answer. What I'm interested to know is if you can lose salvation still having the Holy Spirit, like the topic says.

How would it be possible to "lose" your salvation and still be indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

 

[JacksBratt]

The Bible says Jesus commands aren't heavy to keep. This must be because we are to keep them out of love, we love him and don't want to break his heart. It's easy it becomes a burden: "I have to do this, I can't do this. I don't want to, but I have to." We are not supposed to live like that. We are to live in service because we love Christ. So the love of Christ must come first. How can we love Christ so we live in service? If we live in gratitude to him we live in love. How do we become thankful? Isn't that when we know we are forgiven? And how do we know we are forgiven? Some would say because the Bible says we are forgiven. Then the question arises: If my sins are forgiven, then how can obedience be a ground for salvation? Not saying it isn't, just asking.

Well, salvation is not works based. We are not saved by what we do or don't do. We are not saved by anything of our own doing.

That is "religion".. In religion, we do this, do that, say this, say that, go here, go there, give this, give that......

This was not the teaching of Christ...In the salvation we receive from Christ...It is all done... Salvation is a free gift, from Christ because of what He did.


After that.. some will be doing this, some will be doing that. Others do or say this, others say that... the body of Christ has many workers that do Christs work... but it is not to achieve salvation.. it is done out of love because they have already received salvation. .

And, sad but true... some will not "do" much as their part of the body of Christ. They will enter heaven by their faith in Christ, by having their foot in the door. But after they pass through the judgement of fire.. they will have no reward.. no crown.. just salvation.
Others will be on fire for Christ, carry the torch, feed the hungry, look after the widowed and orphaned, talk to the sinners, champion charities and help the sick and broken hearted.

These will receive many crowns and rewards that they have stored up in heaven..

In between, there are many different ranges of the level of activity of the members of the body of Christ... Some seen and public....some silent and private.. But Christ knows and sees and He will reward those who deserve it.

All in all though... these are all members of the family of Christ, the church, the body of Christ... those who will be the Bride...

Lastly... it is not for us to say who is or isn't going to qualify for salvation... Only Christ knows a man's heart...

I have told my wife before... there are going to be some miserable grumpy crochity souls on earth that make it to heaven and some vibrant charismatic loud and vocal people that don't.

It's not about what you do.... It's what you believe and accept in regards to the truth of who Christ was, what He did and what that means to you for your free gift of salvation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We are not saved by works. That would mean we could do something to "earn salvation" and that simply isn't possible. The idea was condemned early on by Christianity as a heresy.

However - our salvation involves who we are. I don't think many (any?) of us would say that a person can be completely focused on his own pleasures and will, mentally believe that Christ died for sins, say a prayer telling God he wants to get off free, then go right on about being the same selfish darkness-loving person he was and expect to "be saved". The very idea is mocking God.

Rather God desires to save/heal us from our sins. (In the original texts, save and heal are the same word). God wants to restore us to Himself, make us like Christ. If we refuse, we cannot be saved. We remain in our darkness and when the Light comes, it will burn us.

The way in which we are changed is through many things. But these can be summed up by living a life of faith in cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Including how we think, what we do, and more. So in that sense, if we refuse to act like Christ, we refuse to become like Christ - we will not be healed of the effects of sin but will remain in darkness.

Salvation isn't simply a legal contract. That's where the focus went wrong. Salvation is being changed and that is a process. Yes, God can save a person as they are dying. But we cannot expect to live a life in darkness and then be rewarded at the end - it is presumption.

There are far too many passages of Scripture that speak of obeying Christ, running the race, holding until the end, disciplining the body, and so on that we would have to discard to think such a thing.

The early Christians have mountains of writings preserved on such matters. Christians never believed that a simple mental assent was salvific. Again, the demons have more "belief" of this kind than we do, since they have direct experience of God for millennia.

 

[zoidar]

We are not saved by works. That would mean we could do something to "earn salvation" and that simply isn't possible. The idea was condemned early on by Christianity as a heresy.

However - our salvation involves who we are. I don't think many (any?) of us would say that a person can be completely focused on his own pleasures and will, mentally believe that Christ died for sins, say a prayer telling God he wants to get off free, then go right on about being the same selfish darkness-loving person he was and expect to "be saved". The very idea is mocking God.

Rather God desires to save/heal us from our sins. (In the original texts, save and heal are the same word). God wants to restore us to Himself, make us like Christ. If we refuse, we cannot be saved. We remain in our darkness and when the Light comes, it will burn us.

The way in which we are changed is through many things. But these can be summed up by living a life of faith in cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Including how we think, what we do, and more. So in that sense, if we refuse to act like Christ, we refuse to become like Christ - we will not be healed of the effects of sin but will remain in darkness.

Salvation isn't simply a legal contract. That's where the focus went wrong. Salvation is being changed and that is a process. Yes, God can save a person as they are dying. But we cannot expect to live a life in darkness and then be rewarded at the end - it is presumption.

There are far too many passages of Scripture that speak of obeying Christ, running the race, holding until the end, disciplining the body, and so on that we would have to discard to think such a thing.

The early Christians have mountains of writings preserved on such matters. Christians never believed that a simple mental assent was salvific. Again, the demons have more "belief" of this kind than we do, since they have direct experience of God for millennia.

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm not sure our cooperation will give us a pure heart. We can live in prayer each day, live a very good life, even so I'm not sure it will give us a pure heart. It's easy to get stuck min forms going to church every day to attend sermons. People do it every day, but they don't seem to get a new heart, I don't know why. It seems the pure heart must come through mercy, not through works ...

Of course you can't live in sin and expect to be saved. But isn't our focus to be on the forgivness and mercy that radiates from Christ? Where I fail, I trust in his mercy, even so where I live righteous it's also because of his mercy. So to sum it all up, my salvation is completely dependent on him.

I have thought about this some time and my conclusion is that we are saved fully because of Christ mercy through faith, but living disobedient we insult the forgivness of Christ and have to reap the consequence. But there must also be a trust in his mercy when we fail, we must be allowed to fail. Living a strict religious life may not bring us closer to Christ, it's about a relationship through love. That love must spring from the cross where Christ has forgiven mankind. So shouldn't the ground of living a Christian life come from trusting in his forgiveness?

 

[aiki]

What is your understanding? I'm not talking here about enduring to the end, but are we saved as long as we have the Holy Spirit? So please don't make this into a OSAS debate. God bless!

Romans 8:9
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Ok, being in the Spirit means you have the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:9 says if you don't have the Holy Spirit you aren't saved, but it doesn't say that if you have the Holy Spirit you are. On the contrary reading Romans 8:12-13 it seems having the Spirit is not equal with being saved if we not live by the Spirit.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

It is by the Holy Spirit a person is spiritually-regenerated, made alive spiritually, born-again. Read Titus 3:5 and John 3:4-7. There is no being saved apart from the Holy Spirit. It is by his advent into the life of a person that they become a child of God. Romans 8:9 makes this very clear.

A person may be indwelt by God's Spirit but not living in the light of what it means to be so. When this is the case, such a person will live in spiritual frustration, never coming truly free of the sinful things that bind them. One cannot, of course, live in accord with that about which one is entirely ignorant. Maybe you've heard of the street beggar who'd inherited a million dollars from a distant, wealthy relative? A bank account in his name was all set up; the money was his to spend. Unfortunately, his vagrancy made it difficult for him to be found. Many weeks passed in a search for his whereabouts. All the while this poor fellow, though a millionaire, roamed the streets, hungry, and cold, and miserable. He had no idea he was a wealthy man and so he lived like a pauper. Christians do the same thing. Many come to faith in Christ, thinking only of escape from hell, never learning that they have become new creatures in Christ and what that means. They live as a result like spiritual paupers rather than the joint-heirs with Christ that they are. Their lives are filled with moral failure, and weak faith, and frustration rather than with the joy, peace and victory that is theirs as children of God.

 

[zoidar]

We are not saved by works. That would mean we could do something to "earn salvation" and that simply isn't possible. The idea was condemned early on by Christianity as a heresy.

However - our salvation involves who we are. I don't think many (any?) of us would say that a person can be completely focused on his own pleasures and will, mentally believe that Christ died for sins, say a prayer telling God he wants to get off free, then go right on about being the same selfish darkness-loving person he was and expect to "be saved". The very idea is mocking God.

Rather God desires to save/heal us from our sins. (In the original texts, save and heal are the same word). God wants to restore us to Himself, make us like Christ. If we refuse, we cannot be saved. We remain in our darkness and when the Light comes, it will burn us.

The way in which we are changed is through many things. But these can be summed up by living a life of faith in cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Including how we think, what we do, and more. So in that sense, if we refuse to act like Christ, we refuse to become like Christ - we will not be healed of the effects of sin but will remain in darkness.

Salvation isn't simply a legal contract. That's where the focus went wrong. Salvation is being changed and that is a process. Yes, God can save a person as they are dying. But we cannot expect to live a life in darkness and then be rewarded at the end - it is presumption.

There are far too many passages of Scripture that speak of obeying Christ, running the race, holding until the end, disciplining the body, and so on that we would have to discard to think such a thing.

The early Christians have mountains of writings preserved on such matters. Christians never believed that a simple mental assent was salvific. Again, the demons have more "belief" of this kind than we do, since they have direct experience of God for millennia.

I know what you are saying. The problem is if our theology makes us trust in our performance for salvation. It must never be so. I acknowledge that we must follow Christ, not just believe, but if we think we are saved because of obedience, we may place our trust on our obedience. But it can't be the obedience that saves us but God's mercy. On the other hand it can be our disobedience that condemns us. What do you think? Does that make sense?

 

[aiki]

It makes little sense to be saved apart from works only to remain saved by them. This is just works-salvation one step removed. Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5-6 absolutely and explicitly reject salvation by means of our works, however.

 

[JIMINZ]

I have thought about this some time and my conclusion is that we are saved fully because of Christ mercy through faith, but living disobedient we insult the forgivness of Christ and have to reap the consequence. But there must also be a trust in his mercy when we fail, we must be allowed to fail.

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This is a backdoor OSAS Theology.