Have You Made An Informed Choice?

[tocis]

Hovind seems to be quick, which I think is one reason why so many people believe him...

As I see it, hoover also got a cute kind of humor. Even though he claims nothing but nonsense, he often does it so damn funny that more than once I laughed my hindside off listening to his babbling.

 

[JohnR7]

This is all I ask. Have you read both sides of the issue and derived your own conclusion?

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. [14] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I think the people that chose "destruction" have chosen the easy way to go. It is clear that the way to life is difficult and you have to be persistant. To many people are just to easy to give up seeking after the truth, because it is easier to be deceived and believe a lie.

They say do not believe someone that claims to seek true wisdom and knowledge and failed to find it. It is within the grasp of everyone who expends the proper effort.

 

[coyoteBR]

Well, I just became aware of the school of thought called creationism a couple of years ago. I've went to a few sites, read one and other article about the oposing sides. And Genesis, too.

Now, on the other side, I've read a few books (like history a lot).

But I have to say I can't understand the creationist view.

For the more I learn about evolution, more I admire and respect God. The way everything worked the only way it could work in incontable earas, million, billions of years, so this planet could generate the miracle of life...
Man, to consider that is a pray to God in itself. It shows a God Who Cares. Who is Above any Mathematician, Creating every Law of Nature the only way they could be.
Amazing.

Compared to that, the option of spoking things into existence in a fraction of seconds... seems a bit artificial, cold, without puting your heart on the business.

 

[cobweb]

Yes.

I was raised as a YEC. I've read Genesis many times. My (public) high school biology teacher was a YEC and he spent a semester teaching us why evolution was wrong.

...then I took a college level biology course. That was all it took.

 

[steen]

As an aside, Jan isn't serious. Probably.

You think we are being Poe'd? Else his posts really would be trolling, I guess.

 

[Hydra009]

I was raised as a YEC. I've read Genesis many times. My (public) high school biology teacher was a YEC and he spent a semester teaching us why evolution was wrong.

...then I took a college level biology course. That was all it took.

If I might ask, what county was that high school? My first guess would be Cobb.

You think we are being Poe'd? Else his posts really would be trolling, I guess.

Eh, think of it more as an extended parody, and imo pretty funny one at that.

 

[cobweb]

If I might ask, what county was that high school? My first guess would be Cobb.

Actually, it was a little school in Bristol, VA. He is still teaching there as far as I know.

 

[SH89]

Creation-- A book on Creationism(which I didn't fnish), I've read Genesis many times, and I have watched a few of Kent Hovind's seminars.

Evolution--High School biology, a book on evolution, and a few websites here and there(bekerly.edu and T.O.).

I am still not sure. . . .

 

[JohnR7]

But I have to say I can't understand the creationist view.

What is to understand. Read the Bible and allow the Holy Spriit of God to lead you into the truth.

Compared to that, the option of spoking things into existence in a fraction of seconds... seems a bit artificial, cold, without puting your heart on the business.

I am reading a book on that now and it is pretty interesting. It is about the Hebrew alphabet. If you look at DNA that is made up of letters, so you can see how DNA can be an expression of God in the physical world. According to the Hebrews everything in the universe is an expression using the Hebrew alphabet. So there would be nothing that we would not be able to understand and have wisdom and knowledge about.

By Hebrew I mean the origional alphabet with 22 letters, not the modern version we use today. Today they have modified the alphabet to make it easier to learn, but they lose some of the meaning that way. All of the languages use the same alphabet. The letters are used to represent the different sounds that make up the words. There are a limited number of sounds that are combined together, so they can be expressed by the letters.

There were a few writting systems where they used a charactor or picture to represent each word. But those are very difficult systems to learn and most everyone for the last 4,000 years has used the alphabet system. With the alphabet system they were able to keep the Bible very exact and precise as they copied it from generation to generation.

 

[OdwinOddball]

What is to understand. Read the Bible and allow the Holy Spriit of God to lead you into the truth.



I am reading a book on that now and it is pretty interesting. It is about the Hebrew alphabet. If you look at DNA that is made up of letters, so you can see how DNA can be an expression of God in the physical world. According to the Hebrews everything in the universe is an expression using the Hebrew alphabet. So there would be nothing that we would not be able to understand and have wisdom and knowledge about.

By Hebrew I mean the origional alphabet with 22 letters, not the modern version we use today. Today they have modified the alphabet to make it easier to learn, but they lose some of the meaning that way. All of the languages use the same alphabet. The letters are used to represent the different sounds that make up the words. There are a limited number of sounds that are combined together, so they can be expressed by the letters.

There were a few writting systems where they used a charactor of picture to represent each word. But those are very difficult systems to use and most everyone for the last 4,000 years has used the alphabet system .

Are you saying you are trying to divine messages in our DNA using the Hebrew alphabet? Or am I reading this totally wrong?

 

[JohnR7]

Are you saying you are trying to divine messages in our DNA using the Hebrew alphabet? Or am I reading this totally wrong?

I am saying according to the Hebrews the alphabet existed FIRST. Just like the Bible says in the beginning "God said". We can understand the universe because God spoke it into existance. So words can be used to explain it.

I suppose it will turn into a what came first, the chicken or the egg. But in this case, the Hebrew alphabet came first and DNA followed that. Not the other way around. But I am talking about the origional 22 letter alphabet.

 

[OdwinOddball]

So was that a "yes I am trying to find hidden messages in our DNA using the Hebrew alphabet.", or "no I am not trying to find hidden messages in our DNA using the Hebrew Alphabet."?

 

[vitodabona]

So was that a "yes I am trying to find hidden messages in our DNA using the Hebrew alphabet.", or "no I am not trying to find hidden messages in our DNA using the Hebrew Alphabet."?

Why is this so strange to you Odwin, Odin (may be Zeus) has been sending me messages in my Alphabet soup and cereal for years now. It just takes a few stirs with my magic decoder spoon and looking for messages diagonally, ever other letter, or backwards. This morning I got the “blessed be him who takes up the sword”, and “death to the non believers”, it only took 18 stirs and 52 interpretations.

 

[Dr.GH]

This is all I ask. Have you read both sides of the issue and derived your own conclusion?

Or have you listened to someone at church and gained all your information about evolution there? Have you gone to a biology class and thought Creationism is silly without reading Genesis?

As for me.........

I have read the Bible twice, some Christian books, Christian sites about Creationism.

I have read the Origin of the Species, biological textbooks, and viewed sites explaining evolution.

Well, I am sorry to say that I have read the following creationist ???????? or nonsense:

Ashton, John F.
2001 in six days: why fifty scientists choose to believe in creation Green Forest AR:
Master Books

Batten, Don (ed.)
2002 The Revised & Expanded Answers Book Green Forest AR: Master Books

Behe, Michael J.
1996 Darwin's Black Box. New York: Touchstone (Simon & Schuster)

_____ , William Dembski, Stephen C. Meyer (Editors)
1999 Science and Evidence for Design in the Universe: Wethersfield Institute
Proceedings. San Francisco: Ignatius Press

Behe, Michael J.
2001 "The Modern Intelligent Design Hypothesis: Breaking Rules" Philosophia Christi,
Series 2, Vol. 3, No. 1.

Bradley, Walter L., Charles B. Thaxton
1994 "Information and the Origin of Life" in The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific
Evidence for the Intelligent Designer, J. P. Moreland, (ed). Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press

Broom, Neil
1998 How Blind Is The Watchmaker?: Nature’s Design and the Limits of Naturalistic
Science. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press

Davies, Paul
1983 God and the New Physics. New York: Touchstone

Davies, Paul
1992 The Mind of God. New York: Touchstone

Davis, Percival, Dean H. Kenyon, Charles B. Thaxton (ed.s)
1993 "Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins" Charles B.
Thaxton, editor. Dallas, TX: Haughton Publishing.

Dembski, William
1994 "On The Very Possibility of Intelligent Design" in The Creation Hypothesis:
Scientific Evidence for the Intelligent Designer, J. P. Moreland, (ed). Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press

_______
1998a "The Explanatory Filter: A three-part filter for understanding how to separate and
identify cause from intelligent design" © Leadership University 2002
http://www.origins.org/articles/dembski_explanfilter.html

_______
1998b The Design Inference - Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

_______
1998c "Introduction" in Mere Creation Dembski (ed). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity
Press

_______
1999 Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Religion. Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press

_______
2002. No Free Lunch. Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased Without
Intelligence. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.

_____ , James M. Kushiner (editors)
2001 Signs of Intelligence Grand Rapids: Brazos Press (Baker Books)

____
2004 "The Design Revolution" Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press

_____ (Editor)
2004 "Uncommon Dessent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing"
Wilmington Del.: Intercollegiate Studies Institute)

More recently (March 7, 2004) Dembski gave a talk at the Baptist Fellowship Church in
Waco, TX. that was taped recorded. Relevant to the current topic, Dembski, in response
to an audience member's question said, “When you are attributing the wonders of nature
to these mindless material mechanisms, God’s glory is getting robbed.” He further added,
“And so there is a cultural war here. Ultimately I want to see God get the credit for what
he’s done — and he’s not getting it.”

Denton, Michael
1986 Evolution: A Theory in Crisis Chevy Chase: Adler and Adler.

Denton, Michael
1998 "Natures Destiny: How the laws of biology reveal purpose in the universe." New
York: The Free Press.

Ham, Ken
2001 ed. The Lie, Evolution. Green Forest: Master Books

Humphreys, D. Russell
1994 Starlight and Time Collorado Springs: Creation-Life Publishers/Master Books

Johnson, Phillip E.
1993 Darwin on Trial, 2nd Edition. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press

Lubenow, Marvin
1992 The Bones of Contention: A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils Grand
Rapids: Baker Book House

Moreland, J. P. (ed.)
1994 The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for the Intelligent Designer.
Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press

Moreland, J. P.
1999 "Postmodernism and the Intelligent Design Movement" Philsophia Christi Series 2,
Vol. 1, No. 2:97-101.

Muncaster, Ralph O.
2002 Can Archaeology Prove the Old Testement Eugene OR: Harvest House

Muncaster, Ralph O.
2002 Creation vs. Evolution Eugene OR: Harvest House

O'Leary, Denyse
2004 "By Design or by Chance" (Minneapolis: Augsburg Books)

Pearcy, Nancy
2004 Total Truth: Liberating Christianity From Its Cultural Captivity. (Weaton:
Crossway Books for Good News Books)

Perloff, James
1999 Tornado in a Junkyard Arlington, Ma.: Refuge Books

James Perloff
2002 The Case Aginst Darwin: Why the evidence should be examined. Arlington, Ma.:
Refuge Books

Polkinghorne, John
The Faith of a Physicist Minneapolis: Fortress Press, Theology and the Sciences

Rana, Fazale, Hugh Ross
2004 "Origins of Life: Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off." (Colorado Springs:
NavPress)

Sarfati, Jonathon
1999 Refuting Evolution Green Forest AR: Master Books

Spetner, Lee
1997 Not By Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution. New York: The
Judaica Press

Strobel, Lee
2004 "The Case for the Creator" (Grand Rapids: Zordervan)

Thaxton, C. B., Walter L. Bradley, R. L. Olsen
1984 The Mystery of Life’s Origin. New York: Philosophical Library

Veith, Gene Edward Jr.
1994 Post Modern Times: A Christian Guide to Contemporary Thought and Culture
Weaton: Good News Publishers

Walton, John C.
1977 "Organization and the Origin of Life" Origins 4(1):16-35

Wells, Jonathan
2000 Icons of Evolution. Washington D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

Whitcomb, John C., Henry M. Morris
1961 The Genesis Flood Grand Rapids: Baker Book House

It is all bogus, and merely a string of lies.

 

[steen]

Ah, yes. Dembski talking about a culture war. Is he then surprised when educated people with actual knowledge of science is fighting back. If YEC want to fight, they should expect a fight. Do they REALLY want that? I see YEC and fundamentalist theocrats as the greatest harm done to Christianity, driving away or scaring away countless people from Christianity.

But since they want a war, a war is what they are getting.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

For the more I learn about evolution, more I admire and respect God.

Just on this note, I have been an atheist for over twenty years. For the first ten of that, I knew virtually nothing about evolution - just wasn't into it. Then I gradually began to read some science and learn about it. And I can honestly say that the closest I have come to 'leaving' atheism and becoming some brand of theist was when I began to understand evolutionary theory and how it works. I found it difficult to believe that such an amazing system, yielding such variety could exist without a creator.

 

[Kahalachan]

Yup.

Or rather, I gave creationism and ID the chance to present their best arguments, and found that there are no arguments. Everything scientifically-minded people and groups claimed about creationists I found confirmed. Everything creationists claimed about science I found wrong, and often painfully so.

The decision was clear.

Yep my thoughts as well. I let Creationists give it their best shot with providing evidence and saying how their hypothesis could ever graduate into a theory. I found nothing significant.

 

[Kahalachan]

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. [14] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I think the people that chose "destruction" have chosen the easy way to go. It is clear that the way to life is difficult and you have to be persistant. To many people are just to easy to give up seeking after the truth, because it is easier to be deceived and believe a lie.

They say do not believe someone that claims to seek true wisdom and knowledge and failed to find it. It is within the grasp of everyone who expends the proper effort.

The evolution gate is very difficult and new research is constantly being pursued and tested. Creation seems to be the broad gate where it's easy to pass through since you just have to say God made everything individually.

 

[Kahalachan]

Just on this note, I have been an atheist for over twenty years. For the first ten of that, I knew virtually nothing about evolution - just wasn't into it. Then I gradually began to read some science and learn about it. And I can honestly say that the closest I have come to 'leaving' atheism and becoming some brand of theist was when I began to understand evolutionary theory and how it works. I found it difficult to believe that such an amazing system, yielding such variety could exist without a creator.

The teleological arguement for God is one of the best I think. Evolution confirms God much more than it denies it.

 

[JohnR7]

"no I am not trying to find hidden messages in our DNA using the Hebrew Alphabet."?

There are no hidden messages and Science is the one that uses the Alphabet not me. In case you have not noticed "DNA" are letters from our alphabet. The only question here is what came first, the chemicals or the letters that we assign to the chemicals. I say the letters came first.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass

Through the letters we assign to DNA we can see how what God said, became DNA to bring forth the grass.