Have you heard of the idea that Christ's cross was taken to heaven? (Solved)

[rakovsky]

(Update: The answer is that it looks like it is not a common idea, as Charlesworth's source, a German Encyclopedia, apparently only cites the Gospel of Peter as an early writing with this idea.)

Book VI of the Sibylline Oracles has an address to the Cross:

O the Wood, O so blessed, upon which
God was outstretched; the earth shall not have thee,
But thou shalt look upon a heavenly house,
When thou, O God, shalt flash thine eye of fire.

James Charlesworth writes in his book The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha regarding this passage: "The idea expressed in verse 37, that the cross would be taken up to heaven, was popular in later Christian writings." For this idea Charlesworth cites: Rzach-Wissowa 2A, col. 2141. This is an old German Encyclopedia, and he means Rzach's article in the Encyclopedia, which you can read on p. 2141 here: Paulys Realencyclopädie Der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft
But unfortunately I can hardly read German to check it, although I can see that it refers to the Gospel of Peter among maybe other citations.

The Gospel of Peter has the story of the talking cross that followed Christ and two figures out of the tomb. It goes:

[39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them,
[40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.
[41] And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?'
[42] And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.'

In the story you can theorize that since Christ ascended to heaven, then the cross following Him did too.

 

[All4Christ]

James Charlesworth writes in his book The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha regarding this passage: "The idea expressed in verse 37, that the cross would be taken up to heaven, was popular in later Christian writings." For this idea Charlesworth cites: Rzach-Wissowa 2A, col. 2141. This is an old German Encyclopedia, and he means Rzach's article in the Encyclopedia, which you can read on p. 2141 here: Paulys Realencyclopädie Der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft
But unfortunately I can hardly read German to check it, although I can see that it refers to the Gospel of Peter among maybe other citations..

For what it’s worth, this may give you a bit more understanding of the passage:

the end sounds like a glorification of a fire being poured out, the Ent Krenaesholaes takes place. The passage above is often the sending of a wild pigeon (19 is remarkable with its manufacturer. Gregor von Nazianz aims to read apo dyosov METEÚ, Carm. II 2nd July 246 Caillau with the word type RETE 4) as a symbol of Logos, a ten carpor de spor girgorci Sipria. Andreas' hint at Christ's baptism under that in Ebio Cretensis (around 700) describes in a homily the gospel of Preusehen Antilegom. Irg. 8 den v. 26 yildyr rò rior. ir spre ce mentioned window phenomenon, the v. 84 thought Tis Erdy, Migne P. G. XCVII col. 1085. will (as in Book VI 6). Another Von der v. 27 mentioned taking up of the cross symbolic process during the compassionate ascent to heaven is also in the Gospel of Peter 391. 10 taking a poor will v. 85ff. described. Harnack (Preuseben Antil. P. 19, 151.) There is also a lack of apocalyptic visions, and still in Ps. - We do not hear Methodios: v. 24th announces the Sibyllist of the in this tradition Monum. 8th . patr. orthodox Xther towering flame-lit column, from (Basel 1569) 98 xal ara j ar o orangos ir which drops fall down which destroy the sinful toe 14 of the Latin version of beige people. Saekur Sibyll. Texts and Research 98 et ad The common eschatological ideas tur crur in calam. The Er is remarkable. from world fire 11811. Chier thought as a strale of the idol of the appearance of fire at Christ's baptism service) and of the world renewal of 6 (cf. VII 84), which is also found in the Gospel 1391. the author concludes the proclamation of the Ebionites frg. 3 (Preusehen Antileg. 20 of the blissful time of the kingdom of God on 1441 11.1S). The epilogue is self-accused by Si 7. The bylle, which is a pagan, is only an early excerpt - this fiction will definitely be the next book VII (Cherchrift: in God's Word not recognized and stated Hoe koor), also have several passages committed by sin, cf. 151 pugia per Mo Hexrga, mutilation of the archetype suffered. No 8 d. But now from the real The incomplete remnants of a flood flood God led to knowledge (150.), In the entrance she touches herself several times with her guilt and sees death as a description in Burl I. vol. VII 7. I 183. VII atonement. 8 I 125. VII 9-11-195. VIT 12 About the home of the author of this rubble I 196 30 book, from which only a single passage is repeated on historical events (v. 123) with a church writer (Lactant. As 451, on the Parthian Wars (491. Div. inst. VII 16, 13), there is no loss of Roman field signs). The V . 108. be fought with certainty. Regarding the draw up of Rome's rise after Macedonia's drafting time one hardly gets over the 8th Century Trap, after that, of course, will be followed by buses. can go out. That according to the custom of the Sibylists 8. A difficult Probilean is that Vul in turn uses older sayings, illuminates Bueh - in as. counted. Clearly but specifically from the 1st 96. : noteworthy are initially v. 1 - 216 from the rest, especially in this regard the r. 1039. This section also contains a threat to the Celtic land: deep in the 40 balls of leathered pieces. It was buried in the Alps and von In the entrance will be haunted after the fall of an ice age, which will kill all the empires that have emerged one after the other from the Pflan - Babelturm. Touched in formal terms, the last of which is the trai xin of the hemistichion 20 or inquies din Bacisin ucros. From an eschatologi os with a description encountered in other oracles, those appear with a twist, Cass. Dio LVII 8 and LXII 18 BC 2 literal sentences (Makar. VI 85) ebωμαίους έμφυλος όλεί στάσις. 1 . 14 - 16 to come. The next, inherently about the religious position of the publishing house, is a piece of 17-36) about the source of everything in this strange-looking book one can be unhappy, lie Haberlt and lack of understanding, be in no doubt. As a monotheist, he was jealous of 50 who once stood for himself. With sharp, but against idolatry 141. 12911. Certain outside words the greed turns gold and wrestle him as one influenced by the Gnosis wealth, as well as the ruthless oppression, perhaps from the Judaism (Hin to the poor and poor against Belt. It follows the false prophets who stand up for Crimean threats against Rome, whose stole Hebraer issue 135f1., on which Manna 149) will divinely bend home neck. recognize previous Christians, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing his false gods would be of no use to him, comp. 311. Rousset: 977. So z. B. according to which after certain historical Be. Depiction of the baptism of Christ in Jordan 66. the facts received: as the fifteenth Mr. Speech by Drob. , , , Myrio Dial 72: above the Roms folius Caesar including the znostic term re cf. Epiphany. Haer. 60 become an az geros izcor pior (Fehr. 10. 2. Tren. I 28, 2. Acta Thom. 30, Bousset see V 22 ianul lor oro; as RI. VII 15131. 1535, Num. 7. Question about Codd.) oro ro, d. I. Hadrian, occur. 1 . Origin of the Gnostie. 37. Also r. 190. comes across in very tangible contrast to the price of the Guostic appeals. Kaisers in book V 45. the author of Begreifliel's drawing is the inclination of the author to Gnosis to be mystical with obvious bitterness and enemy. Done there, bothering himself a derisive hint, the rigen-like treatment of women 76fl. : wah on the deification of the Antinous (v. 57) not profitable donation from Waver. that misses about. If he was the Emperor Free Bittrigen Jorbach

 

[prodromos]

The Gospel of Peter is not a christian text.
I doubt that any of the early Christian writers said anything about the cross being taken up.

 

[rakovsky]

I am somewhat making out from the spotty translation that the Gospel of Peter is the only text mentioned on that page regarding the Cross going to heaven. But still, Good job with the translation, All4Christ.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if the Cross went to heaven, St Helen wouldn't have found it.

 

[All4Christ]

I am somewhat making out from the spotty translation that the Gospel of Peter is the only text mentioned on that page regarding the Cross going to heaven. But still, Good job with the translation, All4Christ.

The Google translate app is great. It’s not perfect, but it often gives enough to get the gist of what is written. Taking a screenshot and having it translate from that isn’t as good as taking a photo of the actual book, especially without clear text, but it at least somewhat works

 

[rakovsky]

if the Cross went to heaven, St Helen wouldn't have found it.

Good point.
The Oracles were promoted by Constantine, so this part was likely written before her finding of the Cross.
Anyway, the OP is not really necessarily whether the Cross went to heaven in reality, but what early writings mentioned this idea or whether you heard the idea. It sounds like you are suggesting that you hadn't heard this idea before, since it would contradict the finding of the Cross. Do I have that right?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Good point.
The Oracles were promoted by Constantine, so this part was likely written before her finding of the Cross.
Anyway, the OP is not really necessarily whether the Cross went to heaven in reality, but what early writings mentioned this idea or whether you heard the idea. It sounds like you are suggesting that you hadn't heard this idea before, since it would contradict the finding of the Cross. Do I have that right?

oh I never heard of that, but I do know there were some Christian writers who, although not necessarily heretical, took poetic license when it came to stuff.

 

[rakovsky]

OK.

 

[Not David]

I'm more curious about the idea that the cross could talk and said "yep".

 

[rakovsky]

I'm more curious about the idea that the cross could talk and said "yep".

Not David, Can you read German, like in the link in the OP? It would be helpful. I ask because your profile says, "Der Ewige Katechumene".
The likely Docetic "Gospel of Peter" is the only early work that I know that has the talking-Cross motif.

 

[Not David]

Not David, Can you read German, like in the link in the OP? It would be helpful. I ask because your profile says, "Der Ewige Katechumene".
The likely Docetic "Gospel of Peter" is the only early work that I know that has the talking-Cross motif.

I can but don't give me something too heavy since I have classes.

 

[rakovsky]

I can but don't give me something too heavy since I have classes.

OK. It is not too heavy, just about a few sentences. I am looking to see what this German Encyclopedia says on page 2141 about what early writings refer to the Cross going to heave. Here is the link to the Encyclopedia page:
Paulys Realencyclopädie Der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft
I think that the sentences are on the upper left.

 

[Not David]

OK. It is not too heavy, just about a few sentences. I am looking to see what this German Encyclopedia says on page 2141 about what early writings refer to the Cross going to heave. Here is the link to the Encyclopedia page:
Paulys Realencyclopädie Der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft
I think that the sentences are on the upper left.

The first sentence of the upperleft says "The conclusion dies away with the glorification of the Cross wood".

 

[rakovsky]

The first sentence of the upperleft says "The conclusion dies away with the glorification of the Cross wood".

Thanks, but on page 2141 that I linked to, I think that there is more information on early Christian writings (eg. Gospel of Peter) describing the Cross as ascending to heaven.

 

[rakovsky]

My albeit shoddy reading of the German on p. 2141, but confirmed by All4Christ's mechanical translation, is that the German Encyclopedia only cites the Gospel of Peter as an early Christian writing with this idea. Plus, as Fr. Matthew noted, the Cross going to heaven instead of staying on earth would contradict the Finding of the Cross in the 4th century, so it's unlikely that this was a popular idea in Christian writings. If it had been a popular idea, the Finding of the Cross would have been more unlikely. For instance, the Assumption of Mary was a popular tradition, and so while there have been even fraudulent relics over the centuries, there is no relic of the Virgin's body, as it would contradict tradition.
So it's strange that Charlesworth says that the Ascension of the Cross was popular in later writings, citing the German Encyclopedia that cites the Gospel of Peter (late 1st to mid 2nd century AD). By comparison, Book VI of the Sibylline Oracles as Charlesworth's book describes it, is likely from the 2nd or 3rd century, making it not likely much earlier than the Gospel of Peter, despite what he says about "later writings". Maybe Charlesworth's book is confusing the idea of the Ascension of the wooden Cross with Constantine's vision of the sign of the Cross in the sky.

So anyway the answer to the OP must be that it's not something common for people to have heard of, although I do remember having read something like it in the Gospel of Peter.