Have you had frequent opportunities to use your spiritual gifts in the traditional church meeting?

[Christian Prepper]

The exercising of spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ and to make Christ known in the world should be among the most important objectives of the church. They need to be; identified, confirmed, affirmed, and provided opportunities to be used by all members of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:7 says, "now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good". The leadership of the churches should make this a high priority. Sadly, in our contemporary church meetings, the only ones who exercise their gifts are the pastors, worship leaders, and the occasional ones who lead a prayer. The rest of the believers and their spiritual gifts remain on the shelf. 1 Corinthians 14:26 stresses, "everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, etc." Our present form of gathering together does not foster this. It reminds me of being on a winning football team, but the majority of us are sitting on the bench and not allowed to contribute. Our team may win the games, but we don't feel a part of the victory. It is the system of gathering together that we have adopted that does not provide the opportunities to participate in a meaningful way that is at fault. I believe that a different approach to build up the body is needed. It has taken 2000 years for the church to morph into what it is today from what it was in the early days and the changes, in my opinion, have not been all for the best. So are you using your spiritual gifts to the degree that they were intended?

 

[mukk_in]

The exercising of spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ and to make Christ known in the world should be among the most important objectives of the church. They need to be; identified, confirmed, affirmed, and provided opportunities to be used by all members of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:7 says, "now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good". The leadership of the churches should make this a high priority. Sadly, in our contemporary church meetings, the only ones who exercise their gifts are the pastors, worship leaders, and the occasional ones who lead a prayer. The rest of the believers and their spiritual gifts remain on the shelf. 1 Corinthians 14:26 stresses, "everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, etc." Our present form of gathering together does not foster this. It reminds me of being on a winning football team, but the majority of us are sitting on the bench and not allowed to contribute. Our team may win the games, but we don't feel a part of the victory. It is the system of gathering together that we have adopted that does not provide the opportunities to participate in a meaningful way that is at fault. I believe that a different approach to build up the body is needed. It has taken 2000 years for the church to morph into what it is today from what it was in the early days and the changes, in my opinion, have not been all for the best. So are you using your spiritual gifts to the degree that they were intended?

Ministry is actually outside the four walls of the church ("Go into all the world..."). The pastor trains the saints to go out and minister (much like what the Lord had done.) Peace in Christ .

 

[Episaw]

The exercising of spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ and to make Christ known in the world should be among the most important objectives of the church. They need to be; identified, confirmed, affirmed, and provided opportunities to be used by all members of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:7 says, "now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good". The leadership of the churches should make this a high priority. Sadly, in our contemporary church meetings, the only ones who exercise their gifts are the pastors, worship leaders, and the occasional ones who lead a prayer. The rest of the believers and their spiritual gifts remain on the shelf. 1 Corinthians 14:26 stresses, "everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, etc." Our present form of gathering together does not foster this. It reminds me of being on a winning football team, but the majority of us are sitting on the bench and not allowed to contribute. Our team may win the games, but we don't feel a part of the victory. It is the system of gathering together that we have adopted that does not provide the opportunities to participate in a meaningful way that is at fault. I believe that a different approach to build up the body is needed. It has taken 2000 years for the church to morph into what it is today from what it was in the early days and the changes, in my opinion, have not been all for the best. So are you using your spiritual gifts to the degree that they were intended?

In most churches, no one can use their spiritual gifts unless they have an official denominational accreditation.

In one church I went to one man was given a menial job, 20 years after he joined. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore.

 

[Francis Drake]

The exercising of spiritual gifts to build up the body of Christ and to make Christ known in the world should be among the most important objectives of the church. They need to be; identified, confirmed, affirmed, and provided opportunities to be used by all members of the body. 1 Corinthians 12:7 says, "now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good". The leadership of the churches should make this a high priority. Sadly, in our contemporary church meetings, the only ones who exercise their gifts are the pastors, worship leaders, and the occasional ones who lead a prayer. The rest of the believers and their spiritual gifts remain on the shelf. 1 Corinthians 14:26 stresses, "everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, etc." Our present form of gathering together does not foster this. It reminds me of being on a winning football team, but the majority of us are sitting on the bench and not allowed to contribute. Our team may win the games, but we don't feel a part of the victory. It is the system of gathering together that we have adopted that does not provide the opportunities to participate in a meaningful way that is at fault. I believe that a different approach to build up the body is needed. It has taken 2000 years for the church to morph into what it is today from what it was in the early days and the changes, in my opinion, have not been all for the best. So are you using your spiritual gifts to the degree that they were intended?

I agree with everything you say here. However, even in a spiritual gifts church, the pastor usually controls everything. The last thing a pastor wants is anyone bringing words or revelations that go deeper than that pastor's faith or experience.

I was part of a Pentecostal Church about 10 years ago. The Lord very clearly stated that he wanted to start raising up prophets in the midst. The pastor did everything possible to crush it before it got started. He was the boss and didn't want anyone else moving past him.

The Lord told us clearly to leave the false hierarchical system of church government behind us and walk with him outside in freedom. That has been a real joy for the last ten years.

 

[Francis Drake]

Ministry is actually outside the four walls of the church ("Go into all the world..."). The pastor trains the saints to go out and minister (much like what the Lord had done.) Peace in Christ .

Eph4v11 says that perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry is the work of Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. ie. not just the pastor's job.

Unfortunately, ever since the believers were first beguiled into accepting the false hierarchical government of Christ's body, that work has been usurped by pretend pastors.

Pastors are a bit like presidents or prime ministers, his primary job is to try and keep his job! Thus pastors generally see every other source of ministry as a possible threat to his status which has to be thwarted.

Allowing the rise of the other four ministries of Eph4 is an unlikely scenario in today's churches. Likewise the perfecting of the saints for that work of ministry, will never happen till the false pastoral system is destroyed.

To see the failure of this false pastoral system, lets look at the job description given in Eph4.
The pastor's job is Eph4v12toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,

If we look at the average church, we see the same pastor/vicar/minister/priest giving the same message to the same people year after year. Like babies, the congregation passively suckle at the tit of the pastor, believing that they are being fed life.

Certainly some members might grow and move on, but the vast majority of Christians remain at the same infantile level throughout their lives.
If a pastor is preaching the same message to much the same people each year, then he is not a pastor, he has failed and should resign.

 

[Episaw]

I agree with everything you say here. However, even in a spiritual gifts church, the pastor usually controls everything. The last thing a pastor wants is anyone bringing words or revelations that go deeper than that pastor's faith or experience.

I was part of a Pentecostal Church about 10 years ago. The Lord very clearly stated that he wanted to start raising up prophets in the midst. The pastor did everything possible to crush it before it got started. He was the boss and didn't want anyone else moving past him.

The Lord told us clearly to leave the false hierarchical system of church government behind us and walk with him outside in freedom. That has been a real joy for the last ten years.

Everything you have said is a true account of how it is.

 

[Episaw]

Eph4v11 says that perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry is the work of Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. ie. not just the pastor's job.

Unfortunately, ever since the believers were first beguiled into accepting the false hierarchical government of Christ's body, that work has been usurped by pretend pastors.

Pastors are a bit like presidents or prime ministers, his primary job is to try and keep his job! Thus pastors generally see every other source of ministry as a possible threat to his status which has to be thwarted.

Allowing the rise of the other four ministries of Eph4 is an unlikely scenario in today's churches. Likewise the perfecting of the saints for that work of ministry, will never happen till the false pastoral system is destroyed.

To see the failure of this false pastoral system, lets look at the job description given in Eph4.
The pastor's job is Eph4v12toward the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,

If we look at the average church, we see the same pastor/vicar/minister/priest giving the same message to the same people year after year. Like babies, the congregation passively suckle at the tit of the pastor, believing that they are being fed life.

Certainly some members might grow and move on, but the vast majority of Christians remain at the same infantile level throughout their lives.
If a pastor is preaching the same message to much the same people each year, then he is not a pastor, he has failed and should resign.

Yes, yes and yes.

 

[Paidiske]

Thus pastors generally see every other source of ministry as a possible threat to his status which has to be thwarted.

The way I see it, every other source of ministry is an opportunity to expand the work of the church in mission, and is to be encouraged and equipped.

The struggle, in my experience, is not to get pastors to be willing to share ministry, it's to get everyone else to be willing to actually do the work...

 

[Episaw]

The way I see it, every other source of ministry is an opportunity to expand the work of the church in mission, and is to be encouraged and equipped.

The struggle, in my experience, is not to get pastors to be willing to share ministry, it's to get everyone else to be willing to actually do the work...

If a church is enthusiastic about getting people into the ministry and owning it, there will be no shortage of enthusiasm. The church that I went to which did that was standing room only, every meeting.

Getting people into ministry is a waste of time if they are not allowed to own it.

Pastors tend to not allow you to own it. You are just an extension of him.

In the country, I live in now where I have been for 37 years and have lived in about six different towns, Not once have I ever been asked what I could contribute to the life of the fellowship or what I felt my gifting is.

The church here is like the business which hires someone to be the Sales Manager and when he reports for duty, they make him a junior sales clerk and then just maybe in 10 years time he might be made Sales Manager.

 

[Paidiske]

When I came to this parish, my first priority was to have a one-on-one conversation with each person, and ask them (among other things) what they would like to contribute, what their gifts were, and so on.

It has been an interesting experience. I do get the impression that for many people, they hadn't been asked those questions before. It will take time and work to change the culture of a place.

But I suspect a younger generation of pastors will prefer to work in a more inclusive way, because in the face of a changing society, that will be the only way to work sustainably.

 

[Episaw]

When I came to this parish, my first priority was to have a one-on-one conversation with each person, and ask them (among other things) what they would like to contribute, what their gifts were, and so on.

It has been an interesting experience. I do get the impression that for many people, they hadn't been asked those questions before. It will take time and work to change the culture of a place.

But I suspect a younger generation of pastors will prefer to work in a more inclusive way, because in the face of a changing society, that will be the only way to work sustainably.

A one on one conversation a priority? Let's face reality. We have gone to a church where we deliberately sat with people on all four sides of us. At the end of the meeting, they all got up and walked away from us with not even a hallo.

In another church, I sat in the back row right next to the aisle ( there was only one and everyone had to pass me to get out) so no one could pass me without seeing me. When the meeting finished I sat there, not moving.

Do you know how many people spoke to me?

ZERO. When I walked out of the church in disgust, deciding to give the church lunch a miss, one man finally noticed me, out in the car park.

Can anyone tell me how many times they have been invited into someone's home and the owners ignore you?

 

[Paidiske]

I guess what I'm trying to say, Episaw, is that not all churches are the same, and not all pastors are as you describe. I am seeing, particularly with a younger generation coming through, a desire for a healthy church body in which every person fulfills their vocational role.

Now, you can gripe about the ones that aren't like that, or you can seek to encourage the ones that are... but I don't really see what griping accomplishes.

 

[Episaw]

I guess what I'm trying to say, Episaw, is that not all churches are the same, and not all pastors are as you describe. I am seeing, particularly with a younger generation coming through, a desire for a healthy church body in which every person fulfills their vocational role.

Now, you can gripe about the ones that aren't like that, or you can seek to encourage the ones that are... but I don't really see what griping accomplishes.

Those in authority never do see any purpose in pointing out the fact that they are not fulfilling their calling.

And I have no interest at all in vocational roles because they are irrelevant if you want a church to be on fire. For that, you need people in the active ministry of the gifts of the spirit.

If you didn't the scriptures would not have talked about them.

And your comment "I guess what I'm trying to say, Episaw, is that not all churches are the same, and not all pastors are as you describe" is totally patronizing to someone who has lived on three continents, has been in Christian leadership four times and has written a Ph.D on the subject of New Testament church life and leadership which entailed reading over 60 books on the subject.

As my little grandson might say "put that in your pipe and smoke it." He is a naughty little boy but I love him.

 

[Paidiske]

And I have no interest at all in vocational roles because they are irrelevant if you want a church to be on fire. For that, you need people in the active ministry of the gifts of the spirit.

That's what I meant by vocational roles. God gives us the gifts to do what God calls us to do; vocation and gifts of the Spirit are two sides of the same coin. Which is why recognising one's gifts is a big part of discerning one's vocation.

 

[Episaw]

You will note that all members of Christ's body are expected to function when they gather together.
You will note that the message comes forth by various members having parts of the to play.
You will note that its not about someone having the sermonising for 45mins from a pulpit.
You will note that the word comes from a mixture of prophecy, tongues and interpretations, visions etc. all working in unity from Christ the head.

Seems that in most churches Francis they have decided to avoid noting.

And I note that those who usually shout the loudest that they are noting are not.

 

[Francis Drake]

Many years ago I started a Christian business fellowship. My vision was to stir Christians up to let the Lord direct their paths in real and practical terms. I had been running a Christian business by that time for maybe 15 years, and was used to its direction being led by dreams visions prophecies etc.
To me this was the normal way to run a business, especially as I had no clue about balance sheets, forward planning or projections etc.. If God said to do it, we did it.

We hired a conference room at a local hotel and by word of mouth we gathered a handful of Christian businessmen and women together to pray for one another.
My vision was not evangelical in the usual sense, it was about perfecting the saints, or bringing them into maturity.
I merely chaired the meeting, primarily to prevent any strong men from taking it over. We opened by going around the table introducing one another and describing briefly what we did and where our business and spiritual challenges were.
I then insisted that people got out of their chairs and prayed for those who were struggling. Amongst my friends we had a number who flowed in the gifts of the Spirit so prophecy and visions etc came forth.
It was one of the most liberating and encouraging meetings I have ever attended. The next month we had maybe three times as many people flooded in. They had been so encouraged dragged all their business friends and colleagues along.

Again, it was a sensation. The presence of the Holy Spirit in that hotel conference room was palpable. We were able to make the scriptures real, especially when we started talking about spiritual warfare in the market place and doing deliverance right there in the midst.

It was hilarious. I recall on more that one occasion someone violently and angrily thumping the conference table. "Why have we never been taught any of this in church. I have been going there for 30 years and never ever seen anything like this!"
Echoed by many amens.

We saw businesses transformed as scriptural truths were rubbed like salt into painful wounds. We saw imminent bankruptcies completely reversed.

Above all, many Christians learned for the first time that the scriptures are real and frighteningly powerful when the Holy Spirit is allowed to reign.
It also had a hilarious effect, quite a number realised what a farce their churches were. They either left completely, or sought something better. Some made the monthly business meetings their home.
We ended up with hundreds on the books.

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON

​

This thread is temporarily closed for cooldown/staff review.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread Has Been Cleaned

This thread has problems that were removed

There has been some flaming going on - do not make personal attacks even if disagreeing.

There was off-topic discussion going on - please stick to the original topic.

Deeper Fellowship is a debate-lite area --- mild debating that is cordial is one thing, but the debating that was turning heated and flaming here is not what this area of the forum is meant for.

If your post has been removed, it was either in violation or quoting another post that was.

The full list of site rules can be found here.

Further issues with this thread may result in further cleans, a permanent shut down, and member staff actions.

I am now re-opening this thread.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Episaw]

Many years ago I started a Christian business fellowship. My vision was to stir Christians up to let the Lord direct their paths in real and practical terms. I had been running a Christian business by that time for maybe 15 years, and was used to its direction being led by dreams visions prophecies etc.
To me this was the normal way to run a business, especially as I had no clue about balance sheets, forward planning or projections etc.. If God said to do it, we did it.

We hired a conference room at a local hotel and by word of mouth we gathered a handful of Christian businessmen and women together to pray for one another.
My vision was not evangelical in the usual sense, it was about perfecting the saints, or bringing them into maturity.
I merely chaired the meeting, primarily to prevent any strong men from taking it over. We opened by going around the table introducing one another and describing briefly what we did and where our business and spiritual challenges were.
I then insisted that people got out of their chairs and prayed for those who were struggling. Amongst my friends we had a number who flowed in the gifts of the Spirit so prophecy and visions etc came forth.
It was one of the most liberating and encouraging meetings I have ever attended. The next month we had maybe three times as many people flooded in. They had been so encouraged dragged all their business friends and colleagues along.

Again, it was a sensation. The presence of the Holy Spirit in that hotel conference room was palpable. We were able to make the scriptures real, especially when we started talking about spiritual warfare in the market place and doing deliverance right there in the midst.

It was hilarious. I recall on more that one occasion someone violently and angrily thumping the conference table. "Why have we never been taught any of this in church. I have been going there for 30 years and never ever seen anything like this!"
Echoed by many amens.

We saw businesses transformed as scriptural truths were rubbed like salt into painful wounds. We saw imminent bankruptcies completely reversed.

Above all, many Christians learned for the first time that the scriptures are real and frighteningly powerful when the Holy Spirit is allowed to reign.
It also had a hilarious effect, quite a number realised what a farce their churches were. They either left completely, or sought something better. Some made the monthly business meetings their home.
We ended up with hundreds on the books.

Any more inspiring stories like this one Francis. I could spend all day reading things like this.

 

[Johnsloan]

I agree with almost every posted so far. But as you can see there are only four or five people who are even posting anything in here. Not many believe we have anything. Not many believe we are worth anything.
People think renewing your mind is stop thinking bad thoughts. The leaders cant teach what they dont know. The ones who kniow there gifts and walk in them. are all we have to give an example of walking in them.