Have you been Utterly Destroyed ? I

[he-man]

Utterly destroyed = G1852; cut off and does that mean you will be vaporized as smoke? Psalms 37:20

 

[ClementofA]

Utterly destroyed = G1852; cut off and does that mean you will be vaporized as smoke? Psalms 37:20

What's G1852? Does it have something to do with Psa.37:20?

 

[he-man]

What's G1852? Does it have something to do with Psa.37:20?

My error, it should have been G1842! εξολεθρευθησεται. This is what I quoted: Psalms 37:20 and 22; "For the sinners shall be destroyed. And the enemies of the Lord at the same time in their being glorified and exalted, vanishing as smoke vanished". And verse 22 continues: Psalms 37:22 For the ones being blessed by Him shall inherit the land; but the ones cursing Him shall be utterly destroyed. G1842 [Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]. The same as 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "who shall pay the penalty of Destruction Everlasting...[DARBY]

 

[ClementofA]

My error, it should have been G1842! εξολεθρευθησεται. This is what I quoted: Psalms 37:20 and 22; "For the sinners shall be destroyed. And the enemies of the Lord at the same time in their being glorified and exalted, vanishing as smoke vanished". And verse 22 continues: Psalms 37:22 For the ones being blessed by Him shall inherit the land; but the ones cursing Him shall be utterly destroyed. G1842 [Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]. The same as 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "who shall pay the penalty of Destruction Everlasting...[DARBY]

What's the same? That Psa.37:22 says "destroyed" & 2 Thess.1:9 says "destruction"? Two different Greek words are used. 2 Thess.1:9 has Strongs #3639, olethron:

"...ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation)."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

In 1 Cor.5:4-5 one is given to Satan for destruction[3639] of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. In 1 Tim.6:9 olethros is often translated "ruin".

Other translations of 2 Thess.1:9:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Destruction can be a good thing:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Utterly destroyed = G1852; cut off and does that mean you will be vaporized as smoke? Psalms 37:20

No. But, recall the meaning of smoke... we are given the profound symbol of it via the Archangel Michael - aka, "The Angel of the Lord" who "Has the Name of God on him"... via how The Angel to lead the way before Moses and the camp of Israel, as a pillar of cloud during the day. And, as a pillar of fire at night.

Fire burns material and the material as it is burnt away goes away in smoke.

 

[ClementofA]

Utterly destroyed = G1852; cut off and does that mean you will be vaporized as smoke? Psalms 37:20

That's like when David's slingshot destroyed Goliath & Pharoah died in the sea & Sodom went up in smoke.

Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Shempster]

There seems to be a common thread concerning the "wicked".
It always appears to read that those in that group will be destroyed and cease to exist.
Bodily death comes to both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[he-man]

That's like when David's slingshot destroyed Goliath & Pharoah died in the sea & Sodom went up in smoke.

Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Looks like this:

 

[ClementofA]

....

"Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi)."

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Revelation 5:13 is John's vision of universal salvation that will be literally fulfilled in the future. You could call it the chapter 23, or missing chapter, of Revelation. It equates to the "I am making all new" of Revelation 21:5.

It includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[he-man]

"Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi)."

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Revelation 5:13 is John's vision of universal salvation that will be literally fulfilled in the future. You could call it the chapter 23, or missing chapter, of Revelation. It equates to the "I am making all new" of Revelation 21:5.

It includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Strong's plus 2 others disagree with you.

 

[ClementofA]

Strong's plus 2 others disagree with you.

Apollumi is the word Jesus used re the prodigal son who was dead but then alive again, was "lost" but later found. He was not destroyed forever.

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

 

[he-man]

Apollumi is the word Jesus used re the prodigal son who was dead but then alive again, was "lost" but later found. He was not destroyed forever.
Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

James 1:5-6

 

[he-man]

Apollumi is the word Jesus used re the prodigal son who was dead but then alive again, was "lost" but later found. He was not destroyed forever.

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Really?

 

[he-man]

That's like when David's slingshot destroyed Goliath & Pharoah died in the sea & Sodom went up in smoke.

Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Can you read Koine Greek?

 

[he-man]

There seems to be a common thread concerning the "wicked".
It always appears to read that those in that group will be destroyed and cease to exist.
Bodily death comes to both the righteous and the wicked.

Yes and Extinction means to be annihilated.

 

[he-man]

What's the same? That Psa.37:22 says "destroyed" & 2 Thess.1:9 says "destruction"? Two different Greek words are used. 2 Thess.1:9 has Strongs #3639, olethron:

"...ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation)."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

In 1 Cor.5:4-5 one is given to Satan for destruction[3639] of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. In 1 Tim.6:9 olethros is often translated "ruin".

Other translations of 2 Thess.1:9:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Destruction can be a good thing:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

You can lead a horse to water but...

 

[Shempster]

If it was absolutely possible to prove that the end of the wicked is annihilation rather than eternal torture, how would that affect the way we look at salvation?

 

[ClementofA]

You can lead a horse to water but...
View attachment 211351

John 3:16
16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which your pro ECT, anti universalist, version mistranslates as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have
used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. If He wished to teach endless conscious torment, as the Pharisees did,
He could have used their terminology of "immortal" with perishing. But He didn't. The Pharisees also used the word AIDIOS (Rom.1:20; Jude 6, AV, eternal, everlasting)
re the punishment of the wicked, but Jesus chose instead aionion (=eonian), thus rejecting the Pharisees words.

Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

 

[he-man]

John 3:16
16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which your pro ECT, anti universalist, version mistranslates as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have
used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. If He wished to teach endless conscious torment, as the Pharisees did,
He could have used their terminology of "immortal" with perishing. But He didn't. The Pharisees also used the word AIDIOS (Rom.1:20; Jude 6, AV, eternal, everlasting)
re the punishment of the wicked, but Jesus chose instead aionion (=eonian), thus rejecting the Pharisees words.

Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

Read the attachment:

 

[ClementofA]

Read the attachment:

Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke. Both die and in hades the rich man lifts up his eyes and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
That is a position not a place. Rich man asked for a little water, Abraham told him that those where he was could not cross the great chasm between
them and those in hades could not cross to the place where Abraham was.
..

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from your post.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell