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Featured Have You Already Attained Christ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Feb 7, 2021.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Philippians 3:
    8
    I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ
    Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as
    rubbish, that I may gain Christ.
    9
    and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law,
    but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
    10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings,
    being conformed to His death,
    11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead
    12
    Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that
    I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
    13
    Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting
    those things which are behind
    and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
    14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  2. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 8:
    28
    And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those
    who are the called according to His purpose.
    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
    that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified;
    and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
     
  3. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

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    Colossians 3: Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

    2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

    3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

    4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


    5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.


    7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.


    8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

    9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

    11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

    12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

    13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

    14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

    15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

    16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.

    17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
     
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 6:
    5
    For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be
    in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done
    away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
    7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
    8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer
    has dominion over Him.
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    It’s not that difficult to understand. God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Meanwhile, with the gifts now given to us as new creations, with the Spirit indwelling, we strive, we persevere, we work out our salvation with He who works in us. And at the end of the day He, the Just Judge, tells us how well we’ve done with what we’ve been given. There’ll be no condemnation for those who remain in Him, doing His will, “putting to death the deeds of the flesh”, etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Attained?
    • intransitive verb
      To gain as an objective; achieve.
    • intransitive verb
      To come to or arrive at, as through movement, growth, or the passage of time.
    • intransitive verb
      To succeed in a directed effort, process, or progression.
     
  7. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To first receive, then acknowledge and put to full use for the benefit of others.

    Philemon 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual
    by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

    “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven."
    John 3:27
     
  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Philippians 3 is talking about the worth of the knowledge of Christ explaining that the knowledge of Christ is a blessing so surpassing and transcendent that nothing else is worthy to be called good in comparison with that one highest good ..

    When Paul uses the phrase to "gain Christ", a famous Bishop of the Anglican church in England in the early 1800's described it as:

    "To gain Christ is to lay fast hold upon him, to receive him inwardly into our bosoms, and so to make him ours and ourselves his, that we may be joined to him as our Head, espoused to him as our Husband, incorporated into him as our Nourishment, engrafted in him as our Stock, and laid upon him as a sure Foundation" - Bishop Ellicott

    But gaining is not necessarily attaining, so this thread confuses me too...
     
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Response in post#7
     
  10. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That I agree with, although your extra biblical use of the word attain I don't think accurately expresses what the Bible is saying... since Christ's work in salvation is a free gift and so our acquiring is His work... attain implies our own effort, while gain implies gift - which is how the majority of translators translate the passage.

    I believe that while we do indeed run, it is Christ Himself that creates in us the drive and desire to do so, and any accomplishment on our part is His alone. Hence, the elders in heaven casting their crowns of Glory at His feet.
     
  11. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where is MY extra Biblical use of the word?
    The OP post #1 is Philippians 3:8-14.
    The only thing extra Biblical was Steven's dictionary, and your Bishop.
     
  12. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    NIV: What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ


    NLV: everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ


    ESV: Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ


    BSB: More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ

    Berean Literal Bible
    But indeed, therefore, I also count all things to be loss because of the excelling knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom I have lost all things, and esteem them rubbish, that I may gain Christ

    King James Bible
    Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    New King James Version
    Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

    New American Standard Bible
    More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ,


    Gain gain gain gain gain.. does not equal attain. Attain implies something you achieve through hard work and effort and gain is something you aquire, not necessarily by your own effort.

    We don't attain Christ, we gain Him through His work in salvation...words matter. We are called to abide in Christ but without Him and His Work this would be impossible. Why? Because it's not something we can attain!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  13. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The words are Paul's, the OP title taken from post #1

    Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on,
    that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And we won't be perfected until we are glorified - again it's Christ's work that even allows for our glorification.

    Pay attention, while we run it is His work that creates in us through the new birth the drive and the desire to run...

    It's not something we achieve, though we can hope to be pleasing to our Lord and hope to attain all that He desires us to... but it all still rests in Him. Not even Paul could say he was perfected, and I daresay he was far more so than I! Why? Because none of us can claim perfection prior to our glorification...
     
  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, to be clear, you are lecturing Paul now. I have made no comment for you to justify your statements. Do you see any commentary from me in the post#1? The topic of the thread, which you found so confusing, was established solely on the words of Paul found in Philippians 3:8-14.
    Both words were used in the narrative, so you will just have to sort that out on your own.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I like that thought of "laying hold" of Christ. As if to grasp him tightly and not let go. Even if it only means grasping the hem of his garment and hold on for all we are worth. Perhaps this is what is meant by "attain".
     
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  17. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To be clear Paul said he had NOT attained perfection in Christ - that was Paul, an Apostle of Christ.

    Yet your here asking if we attained Christ Himself...

    I'm not lecturing Paul, I'm lecturing you on the English language, and quite frankly, I'm done.
     
  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why are you adding the word "Himself"?
    Title:Have you already attained Christ?
    Based on:Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
    but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

    Exactly the point of the thread, no lectures necessary, nothing wrong with my English,
    only with your comprehension. I hope you are finished digging a rabbit hole here.

     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ^^^^ that is the point, that is the focus here.

    Christ laid hold of Paul - not the other way around - for HIS purposes.

    This created in Paul a desire to accomplish that pupose for which Christ laid hold of Paul to accomplish....

    We are saved for HIS purpose, and we, as His children, accomplish that purpose when we desire what He desires... Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. We aren't asking God to do His will (He'll do that without our petition), we are asking God to change us to want and to will what He wants and wills, and to then go forth and accomplish that.

    And even then, even when we do that as hard as Paul did, we like Paul can still only say, I have not yet attained perfection....
     
  20. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And so, the purpose of the thread was to point out these words of Paul, to exhort and encourage all
    to continue to "press on". Be blessed.
     
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