Have we got our preaching wrong?

[hopeforhappiness]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

 

[topher694]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

It's not about the carrot or the stick.

It's about our identity in Christ.

As we begin to understand our identity and/or grow in our understanding of who we are in Him, we grow in our understanding of His purpose for our lives and as a result we will naturally be equipped to do better AND help fulfill the vision of the house we are planted.

Helping an individual find their identity, plan & purpose will always help further the rest of the Body.

 

[eleos1954]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

What does he say when you ask him about it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

What does the Bible say ? How is the true Ekklesia described in the New Testament, and what is the results of being true ? Or perhaps, how to be becoming 'more' true ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

" Have we got our preaching wrong? "

Is it permitted to give various answers to this question in this section ?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Too much thesis of the Law and not enough antithesis of it being preached. What Jesus replaced the Law with is what people need to hear. After that it's up to them to work it into their lives: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[Phil W]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." (Pro 9:10)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

The book of Galatians deals with the subject of legalism excellently. I am reading a commentary on that book by John MacArthur, and find it well written and clearly explained.

 

[hedrick]

"Never knew you" is presumably Mat 7:23. I'm convinced most people have gotten this whole passage wrong, reversed 180 degrees from the intent. The problem with the people who said "Lord, Lord" wasn't that they didn't show works. They did "many wonderful works." I simply don't see how commentaries can take this and say things like "Jesus demands not just lip service, but actually doing things." These people *were* doing things. The problem was that they didn't do the will of the Father. I think in the Gospels, the will of the Father is that we love others.

Note also, that this and the following passage are summaries of the Sermon on the Mount. Particularly in Mat 5, Jesus replaces the letter of the law with its intent, and then talks about forgiveness and non-judgmentalism. Then this summary somehow gets turned into grounds for legalism and judgmentalism. It wasn't works that were missing, but the spirit of love.

 

[Phil W]

"Never knew you" is presumably Mat 7:23. I'm convinced most people have gotten this whole passage wrong, reversed 180 degrees from the intent. The problem with the people who said "Lord, Lord" wasn't that they didn't show works. They did "many wonderful works." I simply don't see how commentaries can take this and say things like "Jesus demands not just lip service, but actually doing things." These people *were* doing things. The problem was that they didn't do the will of the Father. I think in the Gospels, the will of the Father is that we love others.

Note also, that this and the following passage are summaries of the Sermon on the Mount. Particularly in Mat 5, Jesus replaces the letter of the law with its intent, and then talks about forgiveness and non-judgmentalism. Then this summary somehow gets turned into grounds for legalism and judgmentalism. It wasn't works that were missing, but the spirit of love.

The problem with the people who said "Lord, Lord" was that they still committed iniquity.

 

[hedrick]

The problem with the people who said "Lord, Lord" was that they still committed iniquity.

Of course, but it was iniquity because it wasn't what God wanted, which means what Jesus taught. Jesus is condemning people who think they're his followers, but who are following their own idea of what that means, not his.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

Yes there seems to be a lot of legalism preached as of late, even here.

We need to develop our ability to trust God and rest in His finished work before we can go on to other things, and even then we periodically have to go back and revisit faith in Him. Because salvation is of the Lord, not man. We do works out of love of Him, because He first loved us..

we aren't adding anything to His work, rather, through Him we overcome this world. .

 

[Phil W]

Of course, but it was iniquity because it wasn't what God wanted, which means what Jesus taught. Jesus is condemning people who think they're his followers, but who are following their own idea of what that means, not his.

What they thought must have been that even though they commit iniquity they would be saved.
A fatal belief.

 

[Phil W]

Yes there seems to be a lot of legalism preached as of late, even here.

We need to develop our ability to trust God and rest in His finished work before we can go on to other things, and even then we periodically have to go back and revisit faith in Him. Because salvation is of the Lord, not man. We do works out of love of Him, because He first loved us..

we aren't adding anything to His work, rather, through Him we overcome this world. .

Amen, and everything we do is for the glory of God.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

What they thought must have been that even though they commit iniquity they would be saved.
A fatal belief.

Can you tell me what you mean by iniquity here? Do you mean sin? "If anyone is without sin then he is a liar"
If it applies here I think it is to do with being a "worker of iniquity" - someone who actively undermines the gospel.
Because I firmly believe that "even though I commit iniquity I will be saved". That does not mean I relish my sin, I bemoan it. But Christ's work is greater than my sin or even my repeated confession of it.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

My wife (long-suffering and loyal) has now decided enough is enough as the pastor confided that he "just wants to kick their backsides".
Part of the problem is that
1) he is the solitary leader (no effective eldership)
2) he believes he has sole responsibility before God for the work that he has been given directly by God.
3) he is in his 70s

 

[hopeforhappiness]

I'm just longing for the series of sermons somewhere that does not major on our works of righteousness but on what the marvellous work of Christ is and what it has achieved, and how our condition is fantasically different, with Christ "In Us". Then perhaps I will joyfully and with perseverance respond to the call to "carry my cross".
When was the last time we experienced that inexpressible joy that Paul talks about?

 

[Phil W]

Can you tell me what you mean by iniquity here? Do you mean sin?

Exactly.

"If anyone is without sin then he is a liar" (sic) (1 John 1:8)

John is addressing two very different kinds of man and two kinds of walk in 1 John 1.
It is those who walk in darkness-sin that cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Those in the light-God, however, have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin.
Of course it is incumbent on us to remain in the light.

If it applies here I think it is to do with being a "worker of iniquity" - someone who actively undermines the gospel.

Isn't a person who says he is a Christian while he robs the poor undermining the gospel?

Because I firmly believe that "even though I commit iniquity I will be saved". That does not mean I relish my sin, I bemoan it. But Christ's work is greater than my sin or even my repeated confession of it.

Then you don't believe Matt 7:23.
If you bemoan your sin, quit sinning!
That is a real repentance from sin. (2 Cor 7:10)
Then crucify the old you, joining with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection...at water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of your past sins. (Rom 6:3-6)
The results of that are spelled out in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (v7)
Do these two things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
May God bless you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But Christ's work is greater than my sin or even my repeated confession of it.

Are you talking about a repeated confession of the SAME sin, or a multitude of different sins?

 

[Vicky gould]

Hi there, I haven't been on this site for 2 years. Not sure why, but anyway.
Bought a commentary on Romans by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There's lots of exhortatiosn on the reader TO DO BETTER. Our pastor is continuing haranguing us to DO BETTER as well.
Although it is never spelled out just what he practically wants us to do, but I strongly believe he is talking about us working harder to fulfil his vision for the church.
I just wonder whether we have it the wrong way round. The gospel and NT pastoral care is about carrot rather than stick. I really do think that our pastor and the good doctor are touching on legalism. The "I never knew you" warning the pastor has even used of himself and he is the most committed person I have ever known. His preaching is breeding some bewilderment, some demoralisation and insecurity. Some people have just left.
Anyway, I have come to believe that our sacrifice of good works and seeking righteousness should be a RESPONSE to our salvation not to ensure we don't lose it. Why doesn't Lloyd-Jones and our pastor major rather on the wonderful, wonderful thing that Christ did for us and how many brilliant things were achieved for us ONCE and FOR ALL. Then joy and gratefulness rather than fear and guilt would be our motivation.
What do people think? What is the style of preaching in your church?

When the great Charles Spurgeon preached he had 700 men on their knees in the basement. What kind of support does the pastor have? This isn’t saying it is the total problem but it could contribute. Does he have support especially prayer through the week and when he is preparing tthe sermon? Is he given enough time to prepare what he is going to be led by the Holy Spirit to feed the Lord’s flock entrusted to him. How is his prayer life? Continuing education opportunity? Somethings to consider. Some pastors can become like the valley of dry bones. Some loose the intimacy of their relationship with the Lord and Holy Spirit. Some just need to be called to a new flock. I pray you folks will find the right solution and can settle the sheep and bring glory and honor to our Lord. Scripture has quite a bit to say about shepherds whose sheep are not cared for properly as well. Something I pray you do not have to make the decision to remove your pastor very traumatic in one congregation I was a member of even though it was a thing were we had no choice it still shock us up and we can seeking ways to support the pastor and each other. God bless