Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Blade]

Hi All

'Charismatic' Well I guess I fit in there yet I don't like the word. To me were all the same the only diff is some believe in the gifts and others don't. Jesus will not force you to believe. The way I was tought was you NEVER go (chase) after the gifts, you NEVER go by feelings. The woman who tought me did listen to Kennth C, Kennth H, and others yet she never agreed 100%. She always said if they (her and husband) every said anything that does not agree or go inline with  the word dont listen to them. You shall know them by there fruit. When you needed prayer they would pray and it would happen every time. They would be praying for you and say "the lord says this or that" and you would be in shock and think that had to be God because no one new that. These things happened all the time yet they would always say 'NO dont thank us were just like you give all the praise and glory to God because they could do nothing'. Yet they would always make it clear don't chase after the gifts. With them it was always the Word and Jesus, Father. I to this day have never ever seen anyone say or do the wonders they did. When you were there it was like God was in the room. All they wanted was to teach you about God, Jesus the word. She always had her hair up and allways in a dress, not sure why but. Man every time and I mean every time I called ( At that time I was real young and called like 2-3 times a week, sad) it was always how great God this or that is and doing and in 25 years I never saw her sad. Now they did pray every day 4-5 hours a day. One small example is I had warts on my hands but what no one new is I had them between my toes. Well I asked for prayer about them one night so they sat me in a chair and laid hands on me and prayed then he (lio) said I see them going away and the ones between you toes are going away to. In one week they were all gone. I never put anything on them nothing.

 It was always tell your friends, workers, anyone you meet about Jesus and when his word is going out the holy spirit will be there and the gifts will flow. The never said one bad thing about any person or preacher. Funny they would just say something good. Sounds to good to be true I know thats why I say I have never meet anyone like them today. I am sure there out there. They both went home years ago.

They did say they had to pay a price to get where they were. I think some here will know what that means. As for Charismatics and tongues or money well all they would say is God said ask and he will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask, and I said no alot and they said ok. One day I said ok, they prayed for me and said I got it. I did not feel any different they said dont go by your feelings if God said you will get it you will. So I said ok sat down and it just came out. Its funny because looking back out of everything they did or could do all you wanted was Jesus. I am a very bad writer and had not done a good job telling about my friends.

So many believers want to do wonders or be used by God. There is a price to be paid. I dont mean like Jesus death But so many don't want to pay the price. We read the word and think we know him. I believe if all we spend with God is 5-30 min a day then do we really know him?

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yeah, i agree with most of what you just said.. although we are encouraged to eagerly desire the greater gifts.
We should not make it our goal to obtain a gift, but we should recieve them from God actively..

 

[Blade]

Today at 10:08 AM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #42

Yeah, i agree with most of what you just said.. although we are encouraged to eagerly desire the greater gifts.
We should not make it our goal to obtain a gift, but we should recieve them from God actively..

 I may have said it wrong. I mean it like Jesus 1st then gifts. I want them ALL but.. You know?

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yeah, i get ya

 

[4sightsounds]

15th March 2003 at 05:08 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #42

Yeah, i agree with most of what you just said.. although we are encouraged to eagerly desire the greater gifts.
We should not make it our goal to obtain a gift, but we should recieve them from God actively..

The desiring spoke of in this verse pertains to the entire body, not  individuals. In other words, we should desire that THE BODY have the greater gifts (prophecy), for it will benefit the assembly...

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Please explain why it is meant to reffer to *only* THE Body..

 

[4sightsounds]

a better question would be, "At what point did Paul indicate that he was writing to individuals?"...or better yet "What would lead us to think otherwise?"

The whole letter was written under the theme of ONE BODY, so at what point does Paul indicate that each individual should seek his own gift as opposed to seeking the greater gifts AS A BODY? There's nothing that I can see contextually or linguistically that would indicate this. If I wanted to encourage a group as individuals, I would say "each of you" or something to that effect. Paul's letter was written to all of them as one, not individuals. This fits with the context of 1st Cor 12, which states that the gifts are for the COMMON GOOD.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Yes, i think it is talking about the body as awhole, but also to the individual, as the above scripture seems to indicate...

 

[4sightsounds]

Sorry man, the verses you quoted above give a list of the parts that make up the whole. Also, and most importantly, the language indicates the obvious; that each individual has a different gift, making up the whole. Verse 11 clearly states who is the one that distributes the gifts.

This important.... think about it this way....

Let's say your were given the task of putting together a human being. You got your limbs, your internal organs, your veins and arteries, etc... Most of us would not have a problem putting the limbs in place, but what about the veins? ...or the various parts of the brain? ...or connecting the correct valves to the aorta to the heart? ...man, I get dizzy just thinking about it!

The point is that God is the only one that is capable of distributing gifts among us so that the body is complete and fully functional.

BTW, I like your avatar! I used to spin back in the day.... that 'sorted' guy always gave me the creeps though...

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yes, i'm not disputing that, but it still indicates that the gifts, certainly speaking in tongues can be used for privately praying to God aswell as in meetings, with an interpretation...
Yes, we all have to work together.. but many parts of the body can function just aswell for their desired purpose without another part.

 

[sfg]

In the church as it is today he is hard to find as many people don't welcome him on his terms but only on their terms which can be quite boring and ineffective.

 

[israel_knight]

I don't know if argee you can just use a gift anytime you want. i have learned from experiance if i use my gifts to witness to someone and it is not the will of god the spirit will not bear witness with it and i am just doing things on my own and i have no power of my own so it is futile.

 

[4sightsounds]

Yes, i'm not disputing that, but it still indicates that the gifts, certainly speaking in tongues can be used for privately praying to God aswell as in meetings, with an interpretation...
Yes, we all have to work together.. but many parts of the body can function just aswell for their desired purpose without another part.

But how do we reconcile that statement with the ones in 1st Cor. 12:7 that states "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

There appears to be a contradiction.

On one hand, Paul clearly states that your spiritual gift is to be manifested or revealed amongst the body, not in private...

But in Chapter 14 of the same letter, he states that it can be done in private?

I think that a careful examination of chapters 12, 13 and 14 will lead us to the truth about such use of gifts, and we'll find that Paul was not advocating some "secret prayer language" at all.

 

[israel_knight]

There is more than one type of tounge. If theres not i am one of the few that really has it and everyone else is faking it. Tounges as in a prayer language is really little more than a faith builder. I doubted the prayer languge was real for a long time because is was so diffrent and appeared flaky to me. They usally start out with a sylabel or a few words at most then they say the get better at it as they do it and get more, thats kind of hard to buy. When i recived my gift of tounges i got the whole langauge at once there was no learning to be done. I seem to have recived three interelated gifts a prayer language a heavenly language and a earthly language or base to a langauge.

 

[Andrew]

I think that a careful examination of chapters 12, 13 and 14 will lead us to the truth about such use of gifts, and we'll find that Paul was not advocating some "secret prayer language" at all.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I doubt Paul sang and prayed in the Spirit ONLY in public settings where everyone could see, hear and benefit from a "common good". He obviously did a lot of personal quiet time with the Lord, praying in his own earthly language (Hebrew/Aramaic) and praying in tongues.

btw, he was not advocating some secret language, he was simple exhorting Christians to use their heavenly language to build up their spirits and to benefit the church.

 

[look]

Well, I've got a secret prayer language and the devil can't understand it...

 

[4sightsounds]

There is more than one type of tounge. If theres not i am one of the few that really has it and everyone else is faking it. Tounges as in a prayer language is really little more than a faith builder. I doubted the prayer languge was real for a long time because is was so diffrent and appeared flaky to me. They usally start out with a sylabel or a few words at most then they say the get better at it as they do it and get more, thats kind of hard to buy. When i recived my gift of tounges i got the whole langauge at once there was no learning to be done. I seem to have recived three interelated gifts a prayer language a heavenly language and a earthly language or base to a langauge.

A faith builder? Could you explain the mechanics behind that? I thought that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I thought our faith was based not on "a feeling" but on the absolute truths in God's Word.

 

[4sightsounds]

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I doubt Paul sang and prayed in the Spirit ONLY in public settings where everyone could see, hear and benefit from a "common good". He obviously did a lot of personal quiet time with the Lord, praying in his own earthly language (Hebrew/Aramaic) and praying in tongues.

btw, he was not advocating some secret language, he was simple exhorting Christians to use their heavenly language to build up their spirits and to benefit the church.

Andrew,

Try to fit what I'm about to say into the context of the ENTIRE passage. We can't isolate Chapter 14 from the others. Just hear me out.

All that Paul is saying hear is that when he prays, he prays in the spirit (HIS spirit) along with understanding. In other words, he knows fully what he is saying and doing. Let's back up for just a minute...

in 14:2, Paul says that no one understands the babbling. He is not affirming their actions here. He goes on to say that the person engaged in this activity speaks mysteries in HIS OWN spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

You see, the Holy Spirit is not involved in any of this. Nor is it profitable to the Body. We see the parallels over and over in Chapter 14; vain babble vs. understanding. Most importantly, this fits with everything else on back to Chapter 12.

Furthermore, in verse 2, we see the reference to the word "mysteries". Don't miss this. This word has significant meaning, and is derived from the many mystery religions of their Pagan culture in history. Hence, the reference to "dumb idols" in 1st Cor 12:1-2. Notice that Paul had to make them aware of their pagan, cultic practices. He says in verse 1, "I do not want you to be unaware". Verse 2 is basically a reminder from where they came. I experienced a moder day example of this in Cameroon, where Paganism, witchcraft, etc. are alive and well. One of the main fears in new assemblies is the induction of Paganism in Christian worship setting. This is what Chapters 12 through 14 was addressing.

There's a whole lot more encased in these passages. Context is critical in understanding this.

 

[4sightsounds]

Well, I've got a secret prayer language and the devil can't understand it...

No disrespect, but there is no biblical support for that statement...and whether the devil can understand your communication with God is a moot point. That's why Jesus prayed in a language in which someone was able to record....so that ALL might be edified.

 

[Tawhano]

4sightsounds said:
All that Paul is saying hear is that when he prays, he prays in the spirit (HIS spirit) along with understanding. In other words, he knows fully what he is saying and doing. Let's back up for just a minute...

What Paul is saying here is clearly that he will do both, pray in the spirit (in tongues) and pray in his own understanding. Paul says in the preceding verse that when he prays in an unknown tongue, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful. So how did you come up with the conclusion that he fully understood what he was saying?

4sightsounds said:
in 14:2, Paul says that no one understands the babbling. He is not affirming their actions here. He goes on to say that the person engaged in this activity speaks mysteries in HIS OWN spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

Where is babbling mentioned anywhere in Corinthians? Paul clearly says that a person speaking in tongues is speaking to God not babbling as you misinterpret. Speaking mysteries in HIS OWN spirit but not the Holy Spirit? Where did you pluck that from?

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

A person speaking in tongues does so by the power of the Holy Spirit not by his own spirit. When Paul says his spirit is praying in verse 14 he isn’t saying he is praying in tongues by the power of his spirit but that his spirit is communicating with God through the Holy Spirit.

4sightsounds said:
Furthermore, in verse 2, we see the reference to the word "mysteries". Don't miss this. This word has significant meaning, and is derived from the many mystery religions of their Pagan culture in history.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

From Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

mysteries = Musterion
1. hidden thing, secret, mystery
a. generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b. a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c. a hidden purpose or counsel
1. secret will 1c
d. of men 1c
e. of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
2. in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense
a. of an OT saying
b. of an image or form seen in a vision
c. of a dream

Where is your evidence that the ‘mysteries’ in verse 2 is talking about ‘mystery religions’ and ‘Pagan culture’? The verse is quite clearly talking about communication between man’s spirit and God through the Holy Spirit. The mystery is what the words mean as the speaker cannot understand them unless there is an interpreter.

I’m not sure where you are getting your ideas from, whether another source or your own understanding, but you are way off mark here if you believe the letter to the Corinthians was to counsel them to stop speaking in tongues because it was pagan. Paul was setting them straight on how to conduct themselves when they came together.