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Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Andrew, Mar 6, 2003.

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  1. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    lol, that actually made me laugh :)
    Have you never been to TACF (Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship)? Miracles happen there almost every week, or more. They have been having a revival for many years now, and it's still going!
     
  2. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    You are so right Andrew. I have seen the blind see and dead raised yet the people still went home as if nothing happened. If people would just seek God he will show them so many wonders.
     
  3. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    If these miracles are legit, then why aren't massive amounts of people bringing their sick and dead to these "healers" to have them cured? Why doesn't the media cover this?

    I mean, if someone has the capability to actually revive someone from death, wouldn't this be a huge event deserving of Global attention?

    -A
     
  4. 4sightsounds

    4sightsounds Not playing games...

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    yes...it would...

    Does anyone know the difference between a functional illness and an organic illness?
     
  5. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Thats a great ?. Not to long ago this man feel over dead in church. They checked his pulse and he had none. The pastor came over and put his hand on him and said in Jesus name get up and the man did WOW.
     
  6. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    Erm, they are, and they do. Ever heard of Benny Hin? Yeah, he may be extremely cheesy and maybe a bit over the top about some things, yet never the less God uses him in a mightly way! People get healed of blindness, deafness, broken bones, cancer, ...limbs have actually grow back!
    He's just one example out of hundreds of people who have the gift of healing.

    How can i deny that the gifts exist, when i have seen them with my own eyes, practiced a number of them myself... it's in seemingly black and white in the bible, and i think that if you don't believe that they still exist, you are imo, just trying to make up an excuse for not going deeper with God.
    Yes, there are some verses that, taken out of context, could be very losely interpreted to say that the gifts may have passed away at some point, but the truth is, they haven't!
    They are gifts for us to us to build ourselves up, and to build others up... and you can recieve them if you ask God for them! Try it! :)
     
  7. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    Yeah, thats amazing, isn't God great!
    There is a guy who sometimes preaches at my church. His wife died, but was raised from the dead... doctors didn't have a clue.. and i recall she said that she had see a vision of God, and that he had told her that her time on earth was not over yet, andwas sent back to finish her work. She did, and died a few years later. :)
     
  8. S Walch

    S Walch -

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    Cool!

    Q: Which church we on about? you go too two now remember :p
     
  9. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Well, in all sense of fairness, lack of pulse doesn't mean someone is dead.
    There have been instances where there was no pulse, but a heart was still beating.

    Death only occurs when there is no longer spontaneous respiration and no heartbeat (no electrical current flowing through the heart).

    Most likely, the person in question was experiencing Pulsless Ventricular Tachycadia - where the person's heart beats so fast, but does not have sufficient force to circulate blood - hence, no pulse.

    I'll believe in a person using the Holy Spirit to heal someone if the deceased has been pronounced dead by several physicians over the period of three days. If a person can resurrect a person as such, then I'll forego all skepticism.

    -A
     
  10. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    If you read my previous post in this thread you'll see that I did one yearn for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, for quite a few years.
    I asked God for them, and I fully believed He would give them to me.

    Unfortunately I never received any of these gifts. I felt rejected.
    Then I realized that I never actually seen these gifts at work, nor knew anyone who posessed these gifts. Through further study I realized that I was supposed to yearn for the Spirit of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

    What gift/s of the Holy Spirit do you possess?

    -A
     
  11. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    ste - MC ;) it was a while back... b4 you started coming i think. Was a good preacher too! :)
     
  12. S Walch

    S Walch -

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    Boo.

    I hate the C of E church. [/rant about he C of E church over]

    I could've gone to MC sooner if it wasn't for them >_<
     
  13. Disciple2003

    Disciple2003 New Member

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    We should be very careful who we use as examples to follow.&nbsp; Without a doubt, Benny Hinn is a false prophet.&nbsp; He has made many unfulfilled prophecies and has even pronounced curses on those who reject his ministry.&nbsp; Is that the spirit of Christ?&nbsp; He has also been seen (where the cameras don't go) avoiding certain people who are asking him to pray for them.&nbsp; Why would he do that?&nbsp; You would be amazed what someone can do with a camera.

    &nbsp;
    Actually, this statement is part of the problem with Charismatics.&nbsp; As I said before, I spent 10 years in the Charismatic movement believing everything that was taught.&nbsp; I watched so many people basing their relationship with Jesus solely on how 'good' they felt during a particular service.&nbsp; 'Going deeper' with God, as you put it, always meant some great experience; some feeling.&nbsp; 'Going deeper' with God involves knowing and understanding His word; prayer; fellowship with His people.&nbsp; Experiences will come, but we do not put our hope and trust in our experiences.

    &nbsp;
     
  14. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    No, you misunderstood me! Yes we should seek to go deeper with God by knowing and understanding His word; prayer; fellowship with His people etc etc, BUT ALSO we should seek to use the gifts that he has given us! It's there.. in the bible... "We should eagerly desire the gifts of the spirit".
    I certainly don't base my relationship with him pon how good we feel after a worship service. Are i implying that by using the gifts of the spirit, we are having services with the wrong attitude???

    How do you know this? Have you seen him? or are you just taking someone elses word for it?? Lots of people are against mimistries like that, and would do anything to make them seem false... keep that in mind!
     
  15. Disciple2003

    Disciple2003 New Member

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    Actually, that is not what is says.&nbsp; It says, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts."&nbsp; This comes on the heels of his having just made the point that not everyone in the church shared these gifts.&nbsp; He was telling them to not desire a SPECIFIC gift like tongues (as Charismatics do), but the greater gift.&nbsp; There is much dispute on what this means, but in the context of the whole discussion, it seems to imply that they should desire whatever was needed in their church so that they might build others up.&nbsp; But this was spoken to the Corinthians who needed these gifts because they did not have the written revelation that we have today.&nbsp; Immediately following this statement, Paul tells them that he will show them a more excellent way; the way of love.&nbsp; He was showing them that their motivation behind ANYTHING they did in the body of Christ, including the use of these gifts, was to be love.&nbsp; This is really the essence of all that Paul is saying to this point.

    &nbsp;
    Yes I am implying that.&nbsp; This is not to be offensive, but I have been in so many of these services.&nbsp; Everyone responds with incredible emotion when someone shouts out in tongues or just shouts as loud as they can.&nbsp; When a worship service causes some to weep, they imply that they KNOW the Holy Spirit was there today.&nbsp; Was He not there last week?&nbsp; The Holy Spirit dwells in believers of Christ and is among us whenever we gather together.&nbsp; This does not take some "powerful" service for this to happen.&nbsp; So often, they are looking for that emotional charge that comes from singing loud or 'so-called' prophesying or shouting.

    &nbsp;
    Yes, I have seen him.&nbsp; And I have heard directly from his mouth several false prophesies.&nbsp; I also heard him pronounce a curse on those who come against him (including any Christians who do).&nbsp; Just my own observations.
     
  16. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    true
    No, it states that the greatest spiritual gifts are Tongues and Prophecy, and tells us to eagerly desire them. NOT "the greater gift." but "the greater *gifts*"


    What difference does that make? The "revelation" that we have today makes no difference to the fact that the holy spirit is withus, and why should this change his behavior? He is the same yesterday, today, and forever!!! You're making something out of nothing.

    Obviously they should be used in love, like anything we do! But how on earth, does this change the relevance of the gifts today??

    Yes, this does offend me. Yes, some churches use the gifts as a way of making them feel good.. usually this stems from not using them with the correct attitude.. in the way that they are meant to be used.
    However, implying that any church service where the gifts are used, is done with the wrong attitude, i'd have to ask you to read the BIBLE!
    Yes, sometimes they are misused, but by no means does that justify saying that they are always misused!!!!!

    False prophecies. What were they? How do you know they were false? Please give me an example...

    The curse. Did he pronounce a curse on the people who went agaist him, or against God?? there is a big difference. If he believes that he is doing Gods work, and someone is trying to sabotage it.. does he not have a right to curse them? since they are going against Gods will by opposing Bennys work? Also, please give me an example.


    You have to be careful when deciding if someone is a false prophet, just as you are careful when you are deciding that they are a true prophet! Don't Judge others, thats Gods job! You have to have coclusive proof, not just rumors and guesswork. I'm not saying that you are wrong about him being a else prophet, he may well be! I'm just warning you to be careful so that you will not be judged as you judge him..
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Amen. also the Bible gives us a clue that fasle prophets are not Christians. So, have you checked it Benny Hinn denies the Christ b4 you lable him a false prophet. As far as I know, he like Kenneth Hagin, the Coprlands etc all profess Jesus as their Lord. IOW they cannot be false prophets as far as the Bible definition goes.
     
  18. savedbygrace6

    savedbygrace6 New Member

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    Gifts of the Spirit are just that, gifts. Not&nbsp;for man&nbsp;to use voluntarily at mans will, but with the prompting of the Spirit.&nbsp; Even Jesus stated in Matthew 26:39 O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Your will."


    In Philippians 2:25-28 it clearly states that "Indeed he was ill, and almost died.&nbsp; But GOD had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow." (v27) (NIV)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; God is the healer.&nbsp; God is sovereign, he does all things for His glory, not the glory of man.&nbsp; He chose in his sovereignty to heal Epaphroditus through a different avenue that using Paul as the healer.&nbsp; The Lord does all things to accomplish his perfect will, whether it be giving&nbsp;man the gifts of the Spirit, or&nbsp;healing without using man as the avenue in which&nbsp;to heal through.&nbsp; It all accomplishes the same purpose, to glorify Him.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-14&nbsp;..."No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" (Isaiah 64:4) but&nbsp;God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.&nbsp; The&nbsp;Spirit searches all&nbsp;things, even the&nbsp;deep things of God.&nbsp; For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?&nbsp; In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.&nbsp; We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.&nbsp; This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.&nbsp; The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    &nbsp;:bow:
     
  19. OLDoMiNiON

    OLDoMiNiON Senior Member

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    Amen!
     
  20. 4sightsounds

    4sightsounds Not playing games...

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    Not true. What does Matt 26:39 have to do with the use of gifts? All throughout the NT we are instructed to use our gifts. It is up to the posessor of the gift to exercise volition over the gift. Look at Acts 3:6-8 for an example.


    The point is, once again, Paul could've healed him.....but he CHOSE not to. I know that God is sovereign, but once again, when God issues a gift, it is up to the posessor of the gift to excercise volition in its use. Otherwise there would be no purpose of the countless exhortations for us to use the gifts. Paul chose not to because he would not pervert his gift by using it for a purpose other than AUTHENTICATING the message of God.

    Example: If I told you the Al Sharpton was going to be our next president, you'd probably say I was some type of nut. But if I uprooted your home from it's foundation by lifting my hand, and lowered it back to Earth without a scratch, you're probably not going to argue with me. ;)

    When the Gospel was being presented for the 1ST TIME, it was, to say the least, a shock to the system. There was nothing to authenticate the message. There was not documentation to go by. God was still revealing himself to us (this ought to get some nice replies :wave: ) There is no way that we can compare today with that of the Jews during the NT. That is why the SIGNS were needed.

    &nbsp;:bow:


    [/QUOTE]

    Time won't permit me to expound on this quote.... I'll be back as soon as I can....

    Peace to all according to His name,

    B
     
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