Have Christians today misunderstood the atonement?

[zoidar]

Last night I listened to this youtube clip about what the first Christians believed. Is he right?

Edit:

Summery - Early Christian model teaches:

Jesus died as a ransom for our sins. When a child is kidnapped to whom do you pay the ransom, to the parents? No, to the kidnappers! In other words, the ransom was paid to Satan not to the Father. Adam and Eve chose Satan to be their master, and Satan got the lawful right over mankind. Satan was willing to give up his right to mankind if he could have the Son of God in our place, believing if he killed the creator, then the world would always be in his power. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, the penalty that naturally flows from sin (compare it to: a man overeating may get ill or die an earlier death). Somebody had to pay the price that comes from sin, either God would pay or mankind would be under bondage to Satan and sin forever.

If someone pays ransom for you to the kidnappers, then you owe obedience to that person, in other words we owe it to Jesus. He freed us so he owns us. We were not delivered from an angry Father, but from this evil world and it's master Satan.

Christ would bind Satan and release the prisoners (us). God destroyed sin because he loves the human race. It had to be done by a man, that's why the Word became man. Satan would be overcome by man, whom he had deceived.

The resurrection is a keypart of the atonement, not just that he had paid the price so we can go free, otherwise Satan would have ensnared us again. Christ the Victor, Christ won victory over Satan!

Atonement is NOT: ”We sin but it is as we hadn't sin”. It's not as a legal transaction. It was our nature that had to be changed. Sin alienate us from God. We need to be cleaned up. God can not have fellowship with someone that is unholy, so we have to move towards God, get our heart cleansed from sin and our life cleansed from unholy living, through the power of Jesus blood. We were enemies because of our wicked deeds. Our sins are not covered over, they are cleansed. It's not the penalty of sin that has to be taken away, but sin itself.

Our nature had been infused with moral and physical corruption. Our nature had to be healed, forgiven. We needed to be descendants of the second Adam (Christ). That's why we have to be born again. In the new birth Christ dwells in us through the holy Spirit.

Death and mortalty of man is seen as something positive. God invented death so he could destroy sin, otherwise sin would exist eternally.

It was not enough to have the corruption of Adam undone. As newborn creatures we need the teaching of Jesus how to live, otherwise we would end up under Satan's power again.

Corruption in man is not done away instantly. "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). We have to walk in the light after we are born again, or we end up like Adam again, under corruption. Cleansing is an ongoing process.

 

[Halbhh]

I wanted to hear but an hour and 14 is so long, I'd love to see a summary, but while I've thought on this question some, I also think we don't have to worry about it. We don't have to have some perfect understanding. More, there is going to be some inability on the part of all of us to understand perfectly when we think we do(!) (like 1 Cor 8:2, like that). What I mean is we may get it right. But even when we get it right, that will also be incomplete. Because in part it's about the mind of God and about the mind of God --

6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

And while I noticed Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
From: Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

and that in time made me find out there is another way to word Romans 3:25 in the translations, (and also more than one way to interpret various wordings), I finally realized I didn't have to worry about that, see. Rather, we can trust Him. He did what we need, and it's perfect, and we cannot understand every aspect of it (such as the entire mind of God, we only being finite mortals), but can understand individually what we need, things there were hidden before Christ.

It could help some people though to find out that humans cannot specify and encompass God and say all things about Him! It can indeed help some people to find out the truth in Isaiah 55, that God really is higher than us!

Because that helps them see that some particular preacher isn't God, and isn't able to control or specify God, but at best can only possibly say some true things, and may say some mistakes. Realizing God really is above us can help greatly many people currently alienated from the church by some preacher somewhere once.

 

[com7fy8]

That looks like at least an hour. How about if you give the main things you get out of it? And I'll possibly be glad to comment on what you get

I can offer some general stuff, which you can apply.

(1) What someone says someone else believed might not be correct. So, I like to let each person speak for oneself. And, of course, this might be an issue, for letting someone in the early church tell me what he or she believed about the atonement. Of course, we can read what our Apostle Paul wrote > he was in the early church

(2) The ones said to be the early church might not have been the real Christians. People today might read what certain people wrote and pick the ones they agree with and say those they agree with were the real Christians. So, like I offer > I can't assume that anyone can be sure to be the ones who know which were the real ones and what they really understood.

For me, personally, I understand the atonement means something like this > Jesus died on the cross for our sins; Jesus on the cross made reconciliation for us. And He did this sweetly (Ephesians 5:2, 1 John 2:2), pleasing our Father to reconcile with us.

Now let me check my Strong's Concordance Greek dictionary >

atonement > the Greek word for this is also translated to "reconciliation". And it means putting away differences so we can mutually be on good terms together. In the case of salvation, it includes getting into God's favor. There can be a "mutual change" involved.

Going by what I generally know of the Bible, this then would be the basic meaning which the early church would understand.

In sin, we were on bad terms with God. There came a mutual change > we changed from being contrary to God, and God changed from not favoring us. We changed to trusting and obeying God, and God changed to favoring us by forgiving us and adopting us to become His very own children.

I'm pretty sure this is what the Bible says; so I would say this is what the early Christians understood.

So @zoidar how does this compare to what you got from the tape?

 

[Halbhh]

Hmmm... Yes. We are the ones who got changed. God isn't likely to have been changed (guessing), but we indeed are changed. Perhaps all sorts of things, like perhaps our relationship with God was changed, seems so. After all Christ Jesus is of God, with Him, one with Him, One with the Father.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We need to understand the sanctuary as described in the OT... the one patterned after the Heavenly. In it's types we can understand the antitypical fulfillment. For example, the outer court represents our coming into salvation through Christ. The alter is Christ's sacrifice, the laver is the baptism. The first apartment contains the things necessary for our growth ie: the showbread=the Word. The lampstand = the Holy Spirit (oil) and the illumination it brings to our minds. The alter of incense represents out prayers. Even the walls and gates that surrounded the sanctuary and the direction these gate was facing are all significant to understanding Christ ministry.

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary:

 

[FenderTL5]

Last night I listened to this youtube clip about what the first Christians believed. Is he right?

I think for the most part it's spot on.
Other than a couple quibbles, this view of the early church he described is still the view of Atonement in the Orthodox Church.

The Paschal Troparian (which is sung throughout the Pascal season, beginning this past Sunday)
Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν,
θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας,
καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι,
ζωὴν χαρισάμενος!

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!

In case you wonder, I noted a couple quibbles:
1) at about 13:30 (or so) the speaker maintains the Catholic/western view of Original Sin instead of the ancient early church view of Ancestral Sin. That is; Adams sin spread the "guilt of sin" to everyone. Ancestral Sin says we are guilty of our own sin, not Adam's. Adam brought death and a fallen world.

2) 42:05 (more or less) he talks about the sacrificial offering and uses the word propitiation but then goes on to describe expiation. The Greek word ἱλαστήριον is translated both ways.
Propitiation, is the appeasement of the angry god, where expiation refers more to the redeeming aspect.

 

[Halbhh]

I think for the most part it's spot on.
Other than a couple quibbles, this view of the early church he described is still the view of Atonement in the Orthodox Church.

In case you wonder, I noted a couple quibbles:
1) at about 13:30 (or so) the speaker maintains the Catholic/western view of Original Sin instead of the ancient early church view of Ancestral Sin. That is; Adams sin spread the "guilt of sin" to everyone. Ancestral Sin says we are guilty of our own sin, not Adam's. Adam brought death and a fallen world.

2) 42:15 (more or less) he talks about the sacrificial offering and uses the word propitiation but then goes on to describe expiation. The Greek word ἱλαστήριον is translated both ways.
Propitiation, is the appeasement of the angry god, where expiation refers more to the redeeming aspect.

Interesting. Ancestral sin as you so briefly said it reminded me of Ezekiel chapter 18. Ezekiel 18 NIV Hallelujah!

 

[FenderTL5]

That looks like at least an hour. How about if you give the main things you get out of it? And I'll possibly be glad to comment on what you get

from the summery at the end of the video:
BULLET POINTS:
1: forgiveness rather than a payment being made to God. God forgave our debt.
2: Jesus ransomed us, not from an angry father but from satan/devil and from the power of evil/death.
3: a sacrificial death. Jesus died a heroic sacrificial death, dying to release us.(as opposed to the appeasement to an angry God)
4: Victory over Satan and death, Jesus bound the strongman and released the prisoners.
5: His blood cleanses us of sin allowing reconciliation with the Father. The barrier between us and God is our sin.
6: Jesus became a 2nd Adam through the Incarnation. Through the new birth, we are transferred from death (in Adam) to life (in Christ).
7: Jesus' teachings; Christ revealed the heavenly ways of the Father.

 

[bling]

Atonement is a huge topic with many books written on the subject, all presenting only “theories” of atonement.

These descriptions of atonement seem to have one thing in comment: they all address scripture which supports their theory and show scripture which refutes the other theories and the authors avoid or down play scripture which puts their pet theory in question.

When we talk about “The Early Church Fathers” you might think it suggests these “fathers” came right after the apostles and might have known the apostles, but we have only parts of letters two truly early fathers wrote and these contain little in the way of doctrine. So, when people talk of the “early church fathers” they are mostly talking about scholars writing hundreds of years after the apostles and much seems to have changed.

The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” is the oldest theory we have written copies of Origin who died in 253 AD seems to be the oldest supporter of the theory but kidnapping and paying ransoms seemed to be very common in Origin’s life time and virtually standard practice. Origin and others at the time thought of and wrote of “War in heaven going on” a conflict between good and evil, so captives could be taken.

Christ Crucified is described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment) so it is literally a ransom payment?

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan or is that more than God can do?)


Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.

We can agree on most of the parts with the atonement process being just like a ransom experience: The children of God be held out of the kingdom; Deity making the huge sacrificial payment; Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder on the cross being the payment; and the freedom given the child to enter the kingdom after the ransom is paid. But who is this unworthy kidnapper God will pay to release His child.

We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?


There is the one ransom, but could there be many unworthy kidnappers holding the children of God back?

Does not the nonbeliever himself hold the potential child of God (within them) back from the kingdom?

If the kidnapper does accept the payment has he/she done something worthy or virtually criminal?

You do have a substitute at the cross, standing in for you, but is it those that cried crucify him, the religious leaders, the Roman soldiers, one of the thieves, or maybe one of the disciples who ran away. To say: “Christ took my place” is extremely bold on your part, although you can be crucified “with” Christ like a deserving thief and join Christ in paradise.

Look at a real “Christ crucified” sermon Peter gives in Acts 2 and he says nothing about Christ taking our place on the cross or satan being paid.

If you run out of things to do you might do a word study of the Greek and the Hebrew word “for”. When in scripture is something “for you” ever mean “instead of you” and if the ransom is “for” satan, it would not be for you, but would be for satan to take (this is from the Greek).

Also there is lots of other issues: if the ransom was paid to satan for all humans to be atoned than everyone is atoned, but if you as the rebellious disobedient criminal kidnapper then it is up to you to accept or reject the ransom payment and thus it is up to you to receive or not receive freedom of the child within you.

That is just an introduction to think about.

 

[zoidar]

I will write down a summery of the clip tomorrow... sorry for not doing it before posting.

 

[zoidar]

I will write down a summery of the clip tomorrow... sorry for not doing it before posting.

I added the summery to my first post

 

[zoidar]

What would you say in the bible indicate that the ransom was paid to Satan, and what indictate that ransom was paid to God?

 

[sdowney717]

Our debt of sin is owed to God, since it is to God that we have committed offences.

In the OT the ransom was paid to the Lord God, not the devil.
Exodus 30:12
“When you take the census of the children of Israel for their number, then every man shall give a ransom for himself to the Lord, when you number them, that there may be no plague among them when you number them.

Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

 

[sdowney717]

In the parable, to whom did the servant owe a debt that he could not pay? And who forgave that servant's debt?
There is no devil involved there, the idea is a master/Lord, and a servant/slave relationship.

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[Ron Gurley]

"Substitutionary Atonement"

ATONEMENT ~= RECONCILIATION (all NASB)

Romans 5:11 (KJV)
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 5:10 (all below NASB)
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God THROUGH the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall (certain to) be saved (SANCTIFIED) by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself THROUGH Christ and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

SUBSTITUTION ~ Jesus died FOR you...in your place...on your behalf

1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
for by His wounds you were healed.

1 Peter 2
18 For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) FOR the unjust (Man),
so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit; (RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Romans 5:6,8
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly....
But God demonstrates His own love toward us,
in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

2 Corinthians 5:21...IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin ON OUR BEHALF,
so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Mark 10:45 [Full Chapter]
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

 

[zoidar]

In the parable, to whom did the servant owe a debt that he could not pay? And who forgave that servant's debt?
There is no devil involved there, the idea is a master/Lord, and a servant/slave relationship.

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father alsowi will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Sure, but the king forgave the servant. It was not that someone paid the dept for the servant.

 

[sdowney717]

Sure, but the king forgave the servant. It was not that someone paid the dept for the servant.

That parable is about the Old Covenant relationship between God and men.
In the NC, salvation is a guarantee, by the Spirit, who indwells our hearts. With Christ being the chief cornerstone- foundation rock, and our great High priest who offered up His own blood as the guarantee and assurance of our eternal inheritance. So the blood is an offering for sin. And the blood offering is presented to GOD, not the devil.

Hebrews 9:11-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Heavenly Sanctuary
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us isGod, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

2 Corinthians 5:4-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[hedrick]

The NT speaks of Jesus' death in many ways. There's no reason to think that ransom should be taken this literally. He gave his life for us. But asking who he paid it to is taking a great metaphor too literally.

 

[com7fy8]

1: forgiveness rather than a payment being made to God. God forgave our debt.
2: Jesus ransomed us, not from an angry father but from satan/devil and from the power of evil/death.
3: a sacrificial death. Jesus died a heroic sacrificial death, dying to release us.(as opposed to the appeasement to an angry God)
4: Victory over Satan and death, Jesus bound the strongman and released the prisoners.
5: His blood cleanses us of sin allowing reconciliation with the Father. The barrier between us and God is our sin.
6: Jesus became a 2nd Adam through the Incarnation. Through the new birth, we are transferred from death (in Adam) to life (in Christ).
7: Jesus' teachings; Christ revealed the heavenly ways of the Father.

Thank you, Fender!!! It seems someone is saying, though, that Satan had to be paid. I don't think so. I think "ransom" would not be a payment to Satan. What do you think? I know your points, here, do not specify that Satan had to be paid the ransom. He has nothing in Jesus, as Jesus said. So, I understand he would have no rights. So, how do you understand this, please?

 

[com7fy8]

the ransom was paid to Satan not to the Father.

Satan was punished along with Adam and Eve, wasn't he? So, he would have no right or claim to a ransom being paid to him. Kidnappers have no right or claim to a ransom, for that matter. Jesus satisfied our Father to forgive us and receive us; so ransom in this case is not the same as how ones today understand ransom, I think.

For one thing, Jesus paid His blood, and I am sure His blood has not been given or paid to Satan!!