Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

[Gup20]

You not listening to me, you stuck on that leaven.

You're not making any salient points. We both agree that Israel is "the church" and that "the church" is chosen ... what you haven't shown whatsoever is how Israel is not Israel and how the Jews are not chosen. Showing that the Church qualifies for the second, hidden meaning within the allegory doesn't negate the primary, plainly read meaning of the allegory.

I say "The nation of Israel is chosen" and I show salient scripture where Paul addresses whether or not Israel the nation remains a chosen people in a post-Christ resurrected world, and you say "but the church is chosen... see scripture says the church is chosen." Yes... we both agree the church is chosen. What you are suggesting, however, is that because the church is chosen, Israel is not. This is an error. It is allegorical, not symbolic or metaphorical. Both the Church and the Jews make up the full body of the descendants of Abraham. Both were chosen for different roles.

Perhaps it would help to define what you think "chosen" means. If you think "chosen" means that Salvation cannot come through their nation -- Jesus was a Jew, so salvation came from their nation. If you think Chosen means their covenant of The Law would be how they are made righteous... then I agree with you. No one (besides Christ alone) will be made righteous by the Law. The law cannot make a sinner righteous, it can only affirm the righteousness of the righteous man. The law makes sinners out of those who have sinned. It cannot save a sinner.

I am trying to include all of God's meanings when he calls Israel (Jacob) chosen. He chose that nation to deliver and keep the whole of scripture. He chose that nation as the parable to demonstrate Himself to the world. He chose that nation to give The Law to. He chose that nation to send Christ to. He chose that nation to deliver the promise of salvation by faith to. He chose that nation to manifest His glory throughout time. He chose that nation to be present and participate in the events of the book of Revelation.

Consider one of the reasons why your claim falls on it's face. If true, then the allegorical, metaphorical, or symbolic meaning of eliminating the physical Jews as a chosen people means that at some point God would do the same to Christians. If you think God's promise to Christians is eternal, then so must be his call and promise to the Jews.

 

[Brightfame52]

You're not making any salient points. We both agree that Israel is "the church" and that "the church" is chosen ... what you haven't shown whatsoever is how Israel is not Israel and how the Jews are not chosen. Showing that the Church qualifies for the second, hidden meaning within the allegory doesn't negate the primary, plainly read meaning of the allegory.

I say "The nation of Israel is chosen" and I show salient scripture where Paul addresses whether or not Israel the nation remains a chosen people in a post-Christ resurrected world, and you say "but the church is chosen... see scripture says the church is chosen." Yes... we both agree the church is chosen. What you are suggesting, however, is that because the church is chosen, Israel is not. This is an error. It is allegorical, not symbolic or metaphorical. Both the Church and the Jews make up the full body of the descendants of Abraham. Both were chosen for different roles.

Perhaps it would help to define what you think "chosen" means. If you think "chosen" means that Salvation cannot come through their nation -- Jesus was a Jew, so salvation came from their nation. If you think Chosen means their covenant of The Law would be how they are made righteous... then I agree with you. No one (besides Christ alone) will be made righteous by the Law. The law cannot make a sinner righteous, it can only affirm the righteousness of the righteous man. The law makes sinners out of those who have sinned. It cannot save a sinner.

I am trying to include all of God's meanings when he calls Israel (Jacob) chosen. He chose that nation to deliver and keep the whole of scripture. He chose that nation as the parable to demonstrate Himself to the world. He chose that nation to give The Law to. He chose that nation to send Christ to. He chose that nation to deliver the promise of salvation by faith to. He chose that nation to manifest His glory throughout time. He chose that nation to be present and participate in the events of the book of Revelation.

Consider one of the reasons why your claim falls on it's face. If true, then the allegorical, metaphorical, or symbolic meaning of eliminating the physical Jews as a chosen people means that at some point God would do the same to Christians. If you think God's promise to Christians is eternal, then so must be his call and promise to the Jews.

See ya at the Judgment my friend. May God purge that leaven away now though.

 

[Gup20]

See ya at the Judgment my friend. May God purge that leaven away now though.

No leaven here… just believe the whole Bible as written. You’ll get there one day.

 

[Brightfame52]

Theres a connection of the OT Church of Christ and the NT Church of Christ seen in Rev 12

We see that Christ is the seed of that women Rev 12:1-5

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And in oneness with the Seed of the Women was the remnant of Her Seed the Saints Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So the remnant of Her Seed is the Saints[The Church/Body of Christ] and Christ the Man Child born of Her Rev 12:5 is Her Seed!

 

[Brightfame52]

The Church/Body of Christ in OT !

There's a connection of the OT Church of Christ and the NT Church of Christ seen in Rev 12 pt 2

Now as Christ is the seed of the women, and the saints are as well, then Christ and the saints are One, both the seed of the women. This is to say Christ and His Body the Church are One. Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Now this Oneness stretches back unto the OT into the NT according to the symbolism of the women in Rev 12

 

[Brightfame52]

Folks the Church being a Mystery in the OT and the Church not existing in the OT are not the same. No one has denied the Mystery of the Church in the OT, but to say it didnt exist in the OT is folly, its like saying Christ didnt exist in the OT.

Just like Christ was manifested, so was the Church. John wrote that Christ was manifested here 1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.33

Does that mean the Son of God didnt exist prior to His being manifested ? The word here for manifested is the greek word phaneroó:

I make clear (visible, manifest), make known

properly, illumine, make manifest (visible); (figuratively) make plain, in open view; to become apparent ("graspable").

to become known, to be plainly recognized, thoroughly understood:

Its the same word in Col 1:26 regarding the Church Col 1:26

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Because something was hid doesnt mean it didnt exist. Even so, the NT Saints had it revealed to them that the Church existed in the OT. Rev 12 is a NT revelation.

And finally, the main element of the Mystery was that Gentiles are part of the special set apart called people of God Eph 3:4-6

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Church, or the Called out Family of God was always known as the Seed of Abraham even in the OT. Its saying the Seed of Abraham didn't exist if we say the Church didnt exist in the OT, for they're one and the same, hence Paul writes Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's[His Body the Church], then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ has always been the Head of His Body the Church, since the beginning of the World. This is seen here in Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


17And he[Christ the Head] is before all things, and by him all things consist.


18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Who is the beginning ! Remember in Revelation Jesus Christ said of Himself ?

Rev 1:7-8


7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Rev 21:5-7

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

As Hebrews presents Christ Heb 13:8

8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

If Jesus Christ is the Head of His Body the Church today, Hes always been. If not, then Hes not the same, He changed !

 

[Brightfame52]

I dont think it can be better Illustrated from scripture that Spiritual Israel existed in the OT and continued into the NT with the addition of Gentiles. Here in Romans 11. Here we see Spiritual Israel as the Olive Tree and natural jews being broken off and Gentiles being added/grafted into the Olive Tree which represents Spiritual Israel Rom 11:17

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

See the Saved Gentiles were grafted in among the saved jews in Christ which constitutes the Good Olive Tree, Israel. So those saved jews and the grafted in saved Gentiles make Saved Israel, the One Body of Christ. One Olive Tree, One Israel, One Body as Per Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body/or Olive Tree, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Brightfame52]

Prophecies made to OT Israel are fulfilled in the Church the Body of Christ. For instance Lev 26:11-12

11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.


12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Fulfilled with the Church, the Body of Christ comprised of believing gentiles and jews 2 Cor 6:16

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.51

For this reason the believer shouldn't be unequally yoked with unbelievers 2 Cor 6:14-15

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

 

[Ligurian]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:29-36

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 10:5-7

 

[Brightfame52]

Adam and the Church

And Adam the Son of God Lk 3:38

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I've believed for a great while now that in the beginning, before the fall of man in Adam, the World in Adam was the Church, the Lords body in its natural formation, for Paul writing to the Church at Corinth writes" And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."


This earthy is also the natural 1 Cor 15:46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

So in the beginning of time, Adam was the federal head of the natural lives of the Church, Gods Elect,

however Jesus Christ , the God Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 in Heaven was the Head of Adam. Now one scripture more that I believe confirms this sacred notion that the world in Adam was Christ's Church which He was Head Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,

whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The beginning was Comprised of Christ and His Church, which He was Head, in Adam, who was also a type or figure of Him [Christ] who was to come, the seed of the Women Rom 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Brightfame52]

For in the beginning at creation, Adam and Eve were typical of their Head, that being Christ and the Church, Eph 5:30-32

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Now understand, the Church was a Mystery hidden in the Creation of Adam and Eve in the beginning !

Paul also looks to Creation in his comments here 1 Tim 2:11-13

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Also 1 Cor 11:3,8-9

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.



8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Again Paul refers back to Creation for Church/Spiritual Instruction, hence Creation was Spiritual in intent, grounded in Christ!