Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

[Glory2TheLamb]

Israel has not been replaced.

It appears so, because there are vastly more Gentile Christians than there are Jewish Christians, but the trunk of the tree (and the roots) remain the same. Just because almost all the branches of the original tree have been cut off, and almost all the branches that exist today are grafted in, doesn’t change the fact that it is still the same tree.

Exactly! I can not agree more with you!

 

[Doug Brents]

Exactly! I can not agree more with you!

So then, it is accurate to say that the Church IS Israel.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There are two Israel's

Spiritual Israel - through the promise to Abraham... Jew and gentile.

Physical Israel - Born in a day 1948 - all will come to repentance at some future time.

 

[Doug Brents]

There are two Israel's

Spiritual Israel - through the promise to Abraham... Jew and gentile.

Physical Israel - Born in a day 1948 - all will come to repentance at some future time.

No, physical Israel never had any significance (God can raise these stones up as children of Abraham). The Covenants (Old and New) were with “spiritual Israel”. It never mattered who your daddy was, even in the OT (see Rahab, Ruth, and all the other proselytes to Judaism). What mattered was where your heart was.

So it is today. Are you “in Christ”? Or are you in the world?

 

[Dave L]

This shows that the church has been GRAFTED IN, not that Israel has been replaced.

True. But Physical unbelieving Israel was abolished.

 

[Dave L]

There are two Israel's

Spiritual Israel - through the promise to Abraham... Jew and gentile.

Physical Israel - Born in a day 1948 - all will come to repentance at some future time.

What you are saying is; there are two Rolex watches. One is real, the other is a Chinese knockoff. The knock-off occupied Palestine in 1948.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, has always been those individuals God foreknew in the purpose of Christ Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The same people Paul speaks of here as referring to the Church the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.31

And these are the ones it is promised Jesus shall save from their sins , His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What you are saying is; there are two Rolex watches. One is real, the other is a Chinese knockoff. The knock-off occupied Palestine in 1948.

You post expresses an entirely opposite attitude to Paul who expressed willingness to die for what you call the 'Chinese knock-off'

Sadly I consider your post rather anti-semitic.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Dave L]

You post expresses an entirely opposite attitude to Paul who expressed willingness to die for what you call the 'Chinese knock-off'

Sadly I consider your post rather anti-semitic.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Paul used himself as an example of one saved for the Father's sake. But you miss everything when you fail to realize God abolished Physical Israel in 70 AD after he abolished circumcision. Only that, made one a physical Jew or a physical member of Israel. Especially if they were born to Jewish parents. Not circumcising any of those on the 8th day meant being cut off from Israel.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:14 (KJV 1900)
So you have a theory, but no people to apply it to.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Are you looking for national restoration and salvation of the State of Israel based on this? If so, that is not what it says. But every day we see the broken-off Jews being re-attached to Isreal by accepting Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you looking for national restoration and salvation of the State of Israel based on this? If so, that is not what it says.

What then do you think it says... and please comment on verses 28 and 29.

 

[Dave L]

What then do you think it says... and please comment on verses 28 and 29.

“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” Romans 11:28–29 (KJV 1900)

It means some are elect and will come to Christ. But the majority are cursed of God and hate Him passionately. Check their history including Hitler and see if this is not true.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

“forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks Dave, but that is not Paul is expressing - he clearly states they will all be saved and this prophesy is not yet fulfilled.

It seems that at some time in the future there will be a massive revival in Israel as Paul predicted.

That is what the scripture says regardless of how undeserved, or unlikely you might think it to be.

 

[Dave L]

Thanks Dave, but that is not Paul is expressing - he clearly states they will all be saved and this prophesy is not yet fulfilled.

It seems that at some time in the future there will be a massive revival in Israel as Paul predicted.

That is what the scripture says regardless of how undeserved, or unlikely you might think it to be.

He does not say this. He says "and so all Israel will be saved". You are calling broken off Israel Israel. The Church is Israel. And then you are changing the words "and so" into "and then". What he is saying is, "and so (in this way) All Israel (believers only consisting of Jews and Gentiles) will be saved. The rest are under God's wrath until the end.

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm going to clarify something. National ethnic Israel was God's people while under the old covenant and it was by national covenant. However within that national covenant Israel was remnant Israel the spiritual body of Christ, God's people He foreknew. That Israel will be conformed to the image of Christ. Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

So yes in a real sense national ethnic Israel was God's people for a time by national covenant!

 

[Brightfame52]

The Old Testament Saints are part of Christ Body the Church, or they will not partake of the resurrection in the Last day which they had an eye to. Christ is the firstfruits 1 Cor 15:12-23

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Jesus Christ is the resurrection Jn 11:24-25

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:

Paul testifies that the OT Fathers believed in the resurrection Acts 24:14-15

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 and have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Now the resurrection of the just, or Justified of all time is contingent upon being in Christ ! Its only in Him that all shall be made alive. That goes for King David, or the Philippian Jailor.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ is the Seed of Abraham, for its seen when we consider a couple of verses in Hebrews to start. Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

This no doubt refers to Christ as the " He that sanctifieth" and the " we who are sanctified" are His Body the Church, and they are of One or they are One. The Head and His Members are One 1 Cor 12:12

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Col 1:18

And he[Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now lets look again in Heb 2:16-17119

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people

So He became One when He took on the seed of Abraham in the flesh, He identified in the flesh with those e is the Head of, they also being the members of His Body.

Christ is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And His Body the Church is Abrahams Seed Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Brightfame52]

The True Israel, the Church are those people who have Abraham’s spiritual faith regardless of their ethnicity Gal 3:7,26-29

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham[Israel].

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.122

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 6:16

16 And as many as walk according to this rule[rule of faith], peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Gup20]

The True Israel, the Church are those people who have Abraham’s spiritual faith regardless of their ethnicity Gal 3:7,26-29

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham[Israel].

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.122

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 6:16

16 And as many as walk according to this rule[rule of faith], peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

When you look deeply into Galatians 3 (and I have), what you will find is that the covenant of righteousness by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ came to Abraham in Genesis 15-17. Therefore, the covenant of righteousness (salvation) by faith in the gospel actually pre-dates the Law of Moses by 430 years.

Gal 3:14-17 NASB 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.​

So the question of this thread demonstrates a theological error since the covenant of Faith predates the covenant of The Law. "Has the church replaced Israel?" is the wrong question. The right question would be "Did the Jews replace the Abrahamic covenant given to the Father of Many Nations with a single-nation-only theology?" For Paul says Abraham was a gentile when God made him righteous for his faith in the gospel:

Rom 4:3, 9-13, 16-17 NASB 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." ... 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Isa 54:1 NASB 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.
​

The sons of the desolate one who didn't physically give birth are Christians. The sons of the married woman who is Sarah who gave birth to the physical Jews. This passage in ISA 54 is quoted by Paul in Gal 4 when he describes the two women as two covenants - The Law and Faith.

Often we see prophecy where both Jacob and Israel are mentioned. This shows that God is speaking to both physical Jews and Christians.

1Ch 16:13-18 NASB 13 O seed of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones! 14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, 16 [The covenant] which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac. 17 He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan, As the portion of your inheritance."​

So if we ponder these things deeply we should arrive at the conclusion that God always intended a dual simultaneous meaning of both Jews and Christians to be counted as covenant peoples. This is represented in Israel itself by the upper 10 tribes and lower 2 tribes (lower 2 included JEWdah) being separate "kingdoms." But consider... God had already created the covenant of faith with Abraham ... then 430 years later continued on to make covenants with Moses, the nation of Israel, David, and others and treat them and call that nation his chosen people. Clearly neither Jews nor Christians have "replaced" one another in God's eyes.

Deu 7:6-9 NASB 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​