DrBubbaLove

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What is it about, "God is not Holy Spirit, somewhat like (a) forest is not only wood," that you don't understand? I think probably you are failing to notice the "only."
God is more than Holy Spirit (especially should a believer in Christ know THE SON OF GOD is art of God, (part of God that is!), though Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Thee Christ. That is all I am saying with that simile. (Smile!):amen:
I think you should notice that, that GOD IS MORE THAN HOLY SPIRIT.

Perhaps someone you respect more than me can correct you on that.

(And if you see fit to quote this, please don't change my godly color to some ucky brown!)
What I noticed long ago was a failure to believe in the Trinity Doctrine and the holding of other very unorthodox beliefs to support a position on abortion that is a made up corruption of Christian teachings on those points. As a well as a desire to deny unorthodox beliefs clearly held and also declared in statements actually made elsewhere.

That the belief in "a Trinity" held is very different from and directly opposed to the Trinity Doctrine is evident does not need to be repeated, but I appreciate the effort to help make my point. Everyone got it the first time it was finally directly admitted. Out of closet on that for a while now.

Why someone would think if funny to be coy about or deny their beliefs so they can infuse unorthodox teachings into every discussion of their pro-abortion stance (or any discussion for that matter) is unclear.

Correct. Am not in the habit of respecting intentional and habitual deceit. [Correction - I do respect that ability in poker players - at least when the deceit is not cheating the rules]
 
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DrBubbaLove

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(And if you see fit to quote this, please don't change my godly color to some ucky brown!)
Copy and paste does not always capture the original color added to text, especially if taken through a processor. Searching CF is time consuming so it is easier once done to store those quotes in another place.

Anyway, on my screen the pink is changed to bold black. If black looks brown to someone [else on their PC], it perhaps more accurately reflects what the ideas of the original posts smell like or else their PC pallet has been changed to a different sort of flavor perhaps rather fitting of corruption.

Nice call and good point. Well try in the future to remain true in text colors added to avoid being accused of "misquoting".

At least now we understand I got the coloring of corruption wrong and not that anyone was actually misquoted. Sorry if changing the colors of the original post made it impossible to recognize one's own words.
 
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ChristianFromKazakhstan

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I notice you did not actually answer my question about specifics.

Why?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Not a happy subject. Many ways. Each church is inventing her doctrines. The main idea is, Jesus focused on Kingdom. Churches focus on money, attendance, control, politics, socity, saints etc.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Not a happy subject. Many ways. Each church is inventing her doctrines. The main idea is, Jesus focused on Kingdom. Churches focus on money, attendance, control, politics, socity, saints etc.
Is it not possible to have two-fold purpose-to support the physical plant, put butts in seats and so on, and on the other hand to concentrate on seeking the kingdom? Why must one preclude the other? It doesn't say seek only the kingdom of God, it says "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Then all these things will be given unto you." I'd say that's a better model.
 
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ChristianFromKazakhstan

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Is it not possible to have two-fold purpose-to support the physical plant, put butts in seats and so on, and on the other hand to concentrate on seeking the kingdom? Why must one preclude the other? It doesn't say seek only the kingdom of God, it says "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Then all these things will be given unto you." I'd say that's a better model.

I agree. Well, the problem is, how church is organized. It's based on money. With professional salaried ministers. With all kinds of rewards - even calling somebody "father" or "reverend" is unacceptable reward. It's against Jesus. If money flow is stopped, then church stops. It's not the way of Jesus. All work must be done only free of charge. This is the starting point. Then, if church operates only on the Spirit and on truth and becomes truly effective. As it is now, it's a feeble shadow of what Jesus designed church to be.
 
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SPF

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All work must be done only free of charge.
Why? Seems to me like you're operating and basing your beliefs out of subjective poor experiences as opposed to sound Biblical doctrine. You make a lot of sweeping generalizations and assume you know the hearts of a lot of people when you do so. Your words don't come across as wisdom to me.
 
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ChristianFromKazakhstan

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Why? Seems to me like you're operating and basing your beliefs out of subjective poor experiences as opposed to sound Biblical doctrine. You make a lot of sweeping generalizations and assume you know the hearts of a lot of people when you do so. Your words don't come across as wisdom to me.

No. It's very simple. Jesus said, no hirelings. Jesus said, give to God what's God's and to Caesar what's Caesars. Jesus said, no reward for righteousness from people of any kind. Jesus said, don't call anybody father or teacher. Must worship in the Spirit and truth only. Etc.

Modern popular model of church goes against Jesus.

Must obey Jesus! He is Lord!!!!

Not traditions of men.
 
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SPF

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So what of Paul traveling around to cities, establishing local churches and writing to the congregations? While Paul himself worked a day job, and actually didn't take money from any congregation, he actually was not opposed to it.

I Corinthians 9:11,14 - If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

Galatians 6:6 - Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches.

It is also worth noting that while Paul did supply for his own needs, the church at Philippi did actually provide for Paul, more than once! see Philippians chapter 4.

There are certainly more than a handful of examples of misuse of money in ministry jobs. We could sit here and provide example after example. But that doesn't mean it's universally wrong, or that there aren't good examples, or good churches where the staff is paid appropriately and the Gospel is proclaimed, Christians are disciples, and the needy are served.



 
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Philip_B

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The question about unpaid clergy, who therefore have to work to meet their own physical needs is that they no longer have the time and energy for the work of building up the body of Christ. The average clergy person I think works somewhere between 50 and 70 hours per week. If they then have to devote 40 hours a week to the task of looking after themselves, then they will only have between 10 and 30 hours a week for the work of ministry. Given that it is like that admin and sermon writing, and study is likely to take up around 20 hours a week, you have nothing left for the pastoral ministry. It may well have worked in Paul's day, but it is not going to get a run these days.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What I noticed long ago was a failure to believe in the Trinity Doctrine and the holding of other very unorthodox beliefs to support a position on abortion that is a made up corruption of Christian teachings on those points.
Yes, noticed in the first few posts. Very anti-Bible direction for a thread/op to try to go.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The question about unpaid clergy, who therefor have to work to meet their own physical needs is that they no longer have the time and energy for the work of building up the body of Christ. The average clergy person I think works somewhere between 50 and 70 hours per week. If they then have to devote 40 hours a week to the task of looking after themselves, then they will only have between 10 and 30 hours a week for the work of ministry. Given that it is like that admin and sermon writing, and study is likely to take up around 20 hours a week, you have nothing left for the pastoral ministry. It may well have worked in Paul's day, but it is not going to get a run these days.
Also, in the case of married pastors, family comes first, and churches don't pay very well. Single pastors have less overhead, and less baggage.
 
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rrobsr

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In discussing Luke 1, and especially Mary’s visit with Elizabeth, a little of the writing of St. Ambrose from the 4th century was shared with me as “TEACHING SINCE EARLY UNITED CHRISTIANITY”:
........................
So is something like, “he leapt because of the mystery that was there. She sensed the coming of Mary, he the coming of the Lord — the woman knew the woman, the child knew the child,” is this not EXTREME MYTHOLOGIZING, MAKING UP STORIES?
And is it not how much of Christianity has treated such accounts at those in Luke 1?

2 Tim 1:15,
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.​

Before Paul died he said, "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me." From this verse (and others) it appears that Paul's message, which explained exactly what Jesus accomplished for the New Testament believer was lost. Lies replaced the truth. The only question is if and when the mainstream churches recovered that truth. As far as I can tell, on the whole, the truth is still missing, having been replaced by tradition.

For far too many Christians working on the flesh has replaced learning who we are and what we really have in Christ Jesus, which is the crux of Paul's lost message. Of course I could certainly be wrong, but I'm pretty sure what I am saying is true. We'll all find out for sure when he returns. Then there will be no mistaking the truth. Yeah!
 
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rrobsr

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Men of the church are just as human as the rest of us.

You are absolutely correct, those men were indeed human just like the rest of us. As long as we walk this earth that human side will be part of each and every one of us. The Bible refers to that as the “natural man.”

1 Cor 2:14,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.​

It is plain as day that the natural man can never understand the things of God.

Another name mentioned in the Bible is the “old man” who is said to be corrupted due to deceitful lusts.

Eph 4:22,

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;​

We are told to put it off. Never are we told to make it better by good works. Corrupt is corrupt. Not much there to work with. In fact Jesus had an interesting thing to say about this old man which he referred to as “flesh.”

John 6:63,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.​

The flesh, the natural, the old man profiteth nothing. Romans talks about it also.

Rom 7:18a,

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:​

No good thing means no good thing. There is nothing in the flesh to work with to become righteous before God.

Rom 8:8,

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.​

The flesh cannot please God. There is no getting around this simple truth. No amount of prayer, tithing, going to church, or anything else will ever change the flesh. And yet, I’m sorry to say that is by and large exactly what Christians are told to do every Sunday morning from pulpits across the world.

How many Christians are aware of the “new man?” I’m sorry to say, not many because they've not been taught.

Eph 4:24,

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.​

Ephesians 4:22 told us to put off the old man and this verse says we are to put on the new man. The new man is righteous. In fact he is as righteous as God himself.

Rom 3:22,

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

It doesn’t say the righteousness of God goes to those who “perfect” the flesh. No. It goes to those that do one thing; believe. Specifically to those who confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe the God rose him from the dead.

Rom 10:9-10,

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

At that point something miraculous happens. God puts his seed within that individual, which makes that person a son or daughter of God. It’s the just like having one’s earthly father’s seed makes that person a son or daughter of that father. Pretty much the same thing with one major difference.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.​

The seed of one’s earthly father is corruptible. That is why our flesh eventually goes to the grave. That seed corrupts. But the seed one gets from God at the time of their new birth is incorruptible. A person is born again, not by good works, but by the word of God which lives forever. In other words a born again individual has eternal life and that is God’s workmanship, not the individual’s good works. Outside of the new birth there is only flesh which has no good thing in it. There is no point in trying to somehow make it better. God didn’t. Instead he created a whole new creation within the born again believer.

2 Cor 5:17,

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

This new creature is not an “improved” old creature. That would never work since there is no good thing in the flesh (John 6:63) to begin with. Instead the new creation is exactly what it sounds like, a new (never existed before) creature. Talk about a, “brand new you!”

But does that mean a son or daughter of God no longer has flesh? Not as long as they are walking this earth. And what does that flesh do? It sins and there is no way anybody can prevent that. Good intention, resolutions, promises are all useless. They don’t work because the flesh is useless. But sadly this is what Christians are told to do every Sunday morning.

What should Christians do with the seed of God within? Simply learn about it. The epistles of Paul proclaim what a born again Christian has within. Suffice it to say that is is beyond anyone’s wildest imagination. The Old Testament, including the Gospels, are by and large silent on the matter. There are hints, but the fullness of the new birth was not made known til God made it known to Paul.

Eph 3:4-5,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

The “now” in verse 5 refers to this present age of grace. Prior to this age of grace it was not possible to be born again. It was not available until Christ died, rose from the dead, and ascended to the Father.

So what does one get at the new birth? The first two chapters of Ephesians is a goldmine that covers much of what we get. Following is a list of the promises God made to all born again believers in those first 2 chapters:
  1. Grace (twice)
  2. Peace (thrice)
  3. Blessed with all spiritual blessings
  4. He chose us
  5. Made us holy
  6. Without Blame
  7. Predestined to sonship
  8. Accepted
  9. Lovely
  10. Redemption
  11. Remission of sins
  12. Abounded to us in all wisdom (twice)
  13. Prudence
  14. Made known the mystery of his will
  15. Sealed with holy spirit
  16. We have an inheritance
  17. Revelation in the knowledge of him
  18. Undertanding enlightened
  19. Filled with his fullness
  20. Quickened
  21. Saved (twice)
  22. Raised us up w/Christ
  23. Seated in the heavens
  24. Kindness towards us
  25. Created in Christ Jesus
  26. Made close to him
  27. Made all believers one
  28. Reconciled
  29. Access to him
  30. Members of household
  31. Built together for habitation of God

It’s a rare gathering of Christians where these things are considered. Instead many pastors tell their flock they must behave this way and not that way. In other words, working with that old dead flesh which never works. That is why many believers never really have a sense of peace because each and every believer knows that their flesh falls far short. No matter how hard they try, they just keep on sinning.

In chapter 7 of Romans you can see Paul wrestling with his flesh. He freely admits that the things he doesn’t want to do he ends up doing and that the things he wants to do, he doesn’t. Now if Paul had that dilemma, then I think it safe to say all Christians do. So how did Paul deal with it? Did he double down on his resolutions to not commit sin? Nope! The last verse in this seventh chapter is the clue.

Rom 7:25,

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

The way to serve the law of God with the mind is called “renewing the mind” which basically involves learning more each day about the new creation God puts within the born again believer. It will become quite natural to act in this world more and more like that new creation. As one renews their mind to God’s word they naturally become more like that word, even in their flesh. We will fall short from time to time, but it is nonetheless the best, indeed the only way to become a better Christian.

You have Christ within you.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

That Christ in them is what every Christian should look at, not their flesh and whether or not they do this or that and don’t do this and that. It’s not a question of doing anything. Jesus did it all for us so we don’t have to. He is the reason we are sanctified. It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with good works.

To summarize, forget about the flesh and learn the fullness of what what it means to have Christ dwelling in your heart. That’s it!
 
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