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Featured HAS THE CHURCH ALWAYS BEEN CORRUPT ?

Discussion in 'Debates on Abortion' started by Douglas Hendrickson, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In discussing Luke 1, and especially Mary’s visit with Elizabeth, a little of the writing of St. Ambrose from the 4th century was shared with me as “TEACHING SINCE EARLY UNITED CHRISTIANITY”:
    "The grace of the Holy Spirit does not admit of delays. And Mary’s arrival and the presence of her Son quickly show their effects: As soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting her child leapt in her womb and she was filled with the Holy Spirit.
    See the careful distinction in the choice of words. Elizabeth was the first to hear the voice but her son John was the first to feel the effects of grace. She heard as one hears in the natural course of things; he leapt because of the mystery that was there. She sensed the coming of Mary, he the coming of the Lord — the woman knew the woman, the child knew the child. The women speak of grace while inside them grace works on their babies. And by a double miracle the women prophesy under the inspiration of their unborn children.
    The infant leapt and the mother was filled with the Spirit. The mother was not filled before her son: her son was filled with the Holy Spirit and in turn filled his mother. John leapt and so did Mary’s spirit. John leapt and filled Elizabeth with the Spirit; but we know that Mary was not filled but her spirit rejoiced. For the Incomprehensible was working incomprehensibly within his mother. Elizabeth had been filled with the Spirit after she conceived, but Mary before, at the moment the angel had come. “Blessed are you,” said Elizabeth, “who believed”.
    You too, my people, are blessed, you who have heard and who believe. Every soul that believes — that soul both conceives and gives birth to the Word of God and recognises his works.”


    This appears to me to be going WAY BEYOND ANYTHING IN SCRIPTURE - a preacher getting carried away with his preaching. Considering even only the portion I have bolded, is not this the creation of an immense amount of mythology, FABRICATING a story? Not by any means merely recounting and commenting on what we find in God’s Holy Word?

    Are such accounts as the above one by Ambrose indeed the position of the early church fathers and pretty well everyone after them? I know little of history and therefore ask those who do, to help determine whether the above has indeed pretty well always been the position of the church.

    A friend I talked with today does know some history and referred to Bishop Ambrose as being a mystic and perhaps not all that representative. I suspect from my discussions with others on CF that his going way beyond anything Scripture says (the way it appears to me) is indeed rather indicative of how passages like Luke 1:44 have been generally and almost always treated.

    So is something like, “he leapt because of the mystery that was there. She sensed the coming of Mary, he the coming of the Lord — the woman knew the woman, the child knew the child,” is this not EXTREME MYTHOLOGIZING, MAKING UP STORIES?
    And is it not how much of Christianity has treated such accounts at those in Luke 1?
     
  2. david.d

    david.d Primitive Baptist

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    What is your explanation for John leaping in the womb? Can the Spirit not do what He will?

    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
    Jeremiah 1:4‭-‬5 KJV
     
  3. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi David,
    Note the thing about Jeremiah is God's all-knowing, recognition that the prophet was on the way, EVEN BEFORE there was anything in a womb. Not really tell anything about what is in a womb, except what everybody knows of everybody, that we were all formed in wombs.

    On "John leaping," Scripture does not say John leapt, but that the "babe" which is an endearing way of referring to womb contents when a baby is very much expected, that there was movement of the fetus that is sometimes referred to by prospective parents as "kicking," and in this case may have been quite pronounced and was interpreted by the mother-to-be as leaping.
    Note that movement in the womb is required for the proper growth of muscle and bone.

    Also note that the salutation heard by Elizabeth happened to coincide with the "leaping," (Certainly not leaping like unto that of the guy who was healed by Jesus), and there is no scriptural warrant for thinking there was any causation involved in the "as soon as."

    The Spirit acts in actual people; I doubt it is some kind of "entity"that can do anything like create and make there to be just anything out of nothing. Is not Spirit a kind of motive force, stirring action with guidance and comfort (the Comforter)? So it's a bit much to say "Spirit can do what He will," in that there are definite features of the action of Spirit - it is not just "anything."
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  4. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It is more than Ambrose who held that belief, it has been constant and is still held across divided Christianity.
     
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  5. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    So are you referring to the teaching since Apostolic times as corrupt?
     
  6. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    So looking at this...Christianity has believed this about the Baptist since the Early Church Fathers. Across divisions it has been constantly taught.

    It is consistent with the Greek used and the sentence structure in Greek.

    You have a personal interpretation of Scripture that differs so that means the entire body of Christian teaching on this subject that is in agreement across all major groups is corrupted.
     
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  7. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Can you produce any Christian teaching in the last 2000 years that backs your personal opinion that the leaping was a coincidence? Because there is much that can be produced that disputes that over 2000 years.
     
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  8. david.d

    david.d Primitive Baptist

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    Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
    Jeremiah 1:4‭-‬5 KJV

    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    Matthew 1:20 KJV

    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. It sanctified(!!!!!!) a prophet before he came forth from the womb and conceived Christ... I think it is likely the Spirit of God could (and did in John's case) give the new birth to a child before he was even born, it's the Spirit of God.
     
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  9. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems many do not know what "coincidence" means, that it means co-incidence. I think Scripture plainly says the "leaping" happened at the same time, "as soon as." COINCIDENCE does not mean more than that - others (I guess following Ambrose to some extent) add more to it.
    Is it not plain it happened at the same time, that it was co-incident to Elizabeth hearing Mary's salutation? Note I am not claiming it was "only coincidence," though that might be the case, but I think it is to go beyond what we are told in Scripture to even claim that. I would think we should stick to what is in Scripture, not make that into something not there.

    And I do not think we should be trotting off with elaborate stories even if they are "consistent" with the Greek words present. That can make it into something other than that originally presented pretty quickly. (Perhaps to prove some other theories?)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  10. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So what do you think that sanctification actually was? The Spirit of God can be very moving indeed, but was the "sanctification" of Jeremiah even by the Spirit of God. And from Scripture there is no need to think the "sanctification," whatever that was, even happened in the womb.
     
  11. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    IF as in Ambrose there are a lot of elements like unto that claiming there was a real person John in a womb who sensed some supposed real person Jesus in another womb, then yes, I think that illustrates throughout the entire history there has been a great deal of corruption.
    Corruption of Scripture, it seems. If, like in this example re Luke 1, it goes way beyond what Scripture actually says, yet claims it is saying what Scripture says.
    The preaching might sound nice, flowery and all, but has been basically misrepresentation of the Word of God.
     
  12. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    So you are right and Elizabeth is wrong? Because she attributes to the leap a cause and emotion. Sticking with just Scripture Elizabeth explains what caused the event and that it was accompanied by an emotion on the part of the Baptist. So the person within her had an emotion caused by an external event. That is followed by the Magnificant that focuses on the motherhood of Mary and the Incarnation. Clearly tying the cause and event to the arrival of the Savior causes the leap for joy in the Baptist.

    And again...this was not just Ambrose. It has been held by all major Christian groups even amid other divisions. You are inferring Ambrose is an aberration or not indicative of Christian belief when that could not be further from the truth.

    Also there is the clear typology of Elizabeth's statement: ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ
    to King David's statement: Πῶς εἰσελεύσεται πρός με ἡ κιβωτὸς κυρίου

    Which again indicates that it is the arrival of the Christ that causes the Joy. And all of this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the Scripture on this.

    This is Scripture. It does not go beyond it one iota. In fact to maintain Scripture does not strongly show that the Baptist leaps because of the coming of the Christ in Mary, requires we ignore massive amounts of Scripture or give it our own spin because the truth of it is inconvenient to the error that the human being is not a person in the womb.

    The Word of God is clear. You may have a hard time accepting that, but I think the body of evidence is really against your personal interpretation. It does not go beyond what Scripture says. It goes beyond what some may wish it says. But that is not the fault of 2000 years of Christianity. To imply negative things like corruption about the Early Church Fathers...in particular those from Nicaea (like Ambrose), is a bit much.

    So your thread asks if it has always been corrupt. And your examples are what you see as extrapolations from Scripture by the Early Church Fathers (one in particular but the concept in general). So what about the Didache? Or the decisions of Nicaea? These would also fall into the realm of what you seem to have a problem with and relate to your question: "Has The Church Always Been Corrupt"
     
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  13. david.d

    david.d Primitive Baptist

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    See here's what I'm seeing here. You seem to take the scripture very literally and say not to read too much into, but then it's like you aren't reading it all. If something happens when something else happens, that means the same time. That's fairly literal. If something happens before something else happens, that means a) happened before b), not at the same time. If something is written in increasing detail, then generally the details apply in succession along with the events. Therefore if this detail happened before you wore formed and that detail happened before you were born, generally it means that happened in between.

    Sanctification means the process of sanctifying, which generally refers to be made holy.

    I don't know you nor anything about you, neither do I know your motives here. So, with all due respect, I'm going to scratch this one off as some kind of malformed doctrinal justification and call it a day. God bless.
     
  14. david.d

    david.d Primitive Baptist

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    Alright, well I stand corrected, we'll proceed.

    What do you propose was in the womb if not a real person? Do you think there is just some placeholder there for 9 months and it magically turns into a baby upon exit? I now see the malformed doctrine you are attempting to justify. Yes, the Bible says we are alive in the womb and we are actually a person in the womb. Is the Word of God a misrepresentation of the Word of God as well? Let's move beyond John, show me scripture that contradicts this account of John...I'll wait.
     
  15. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon CF Senior Ambassador

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    The first question to ask is, What is the church? Acts 2.41-42 gives basic examples of basic local church activities. These activities are definitely not inherently corrupt; the opposite, in fact.

    But where man has seen fit to add to what God's Word says about the church, then here there is scope for all sorts of problems.

    1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of three groups of ppl: the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God. Mixing these Scriptural distinctions leads to a lot of problems also.
     
  16. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You say "This is Scripture. ...strongly show that the Baptist leaps because of the coming of the Christ in Mary..."
    I don't think it even weakly shows that. The most it "shows" (claims) is that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, "the babe leaped... ." A VAST DIFFERENCE.
    "...the coming of the Christ in Mary" is all read in by you and others, NOT THERE in Scripture.

    I feel rather sorry for anyone who has a concept of Christ the Son of God that has such a being as an invisible nothing in a womb of utter dark captivity. Christ was captive on the Cross for us, but did not exist as some single cell of merely genetic information , without any flesh even, NOT A MAN OF FLESH AND BLOOD.

    The Didache says, "you shall not murder a child by abortion," but gives NO JUSTIFICATION for such an idea. I can find nothing in the Canons of Nicaea that says anything about the matter, or even Luke 1.

    Edit: So is someone messing with my posting - putting a CROSS-OUT on almost everything? I cannot figure out how to remove it. (Clue - I tried to put a square bracketed "s" after "show" in my original quote.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Trust & Obey Supporter

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    Douglas, what in the world does the 'church being corrupt' have to do with abortion? (Posted in Abortion debate)
     
  18. david.d

    david.d Primitive Baptist

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    Douglas doesnt think a "real person" is in the womb. Based on his view that life begins at birth, he is attempting to justify a pro-abortion view. It's the magical process of a "clump of cells" becoming a person when they exit the womb. In a single thread, Douglas has blasphemied the Holy Spirit, denied the personhood of Christ as a man (flesh and blood - no communion for Douglas I guess), attempted to limit the power of God to his own understanding, and called 2000 years of Christian beliefs "Extreme Mythologizing". All for the sake of killing unborn children.
     
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  19. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    No one is messing with your post that I can see. A bracketed S usually means strikethough in most code.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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  20. Davidnic

    Davidnic Advisor's Assistant Staff Member Advisor's Assistant Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    You are all over the place. Your thread, is about the Church being corrupt. You tie that to the interpretation of Scripture by Early Church Fathers such as Ambrose. I am at a loss as to how you can not see the direct impact your proposed question has on Nicaea. Your view effects issues like the Incarnation and the Trinity.

    Many people in a few threads on these related topics have presented clear refutation of your opinion by citing Scripture and the expressed theology of the united and divided Christian Church. The response is repeating that what we say is not so. Well, again...two thousand years of constant interpretation vs your opinion on this matter. So I am sure if someone compares the arguments put forth both for and against the issues here they can come to their own conclusion.

    I was able to remove the strike through in what I quoted by you by removing the bracketed S in the quote when using the quote function. So it is the bracket S that causes that.
     
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