Has my sin killed me spiritually? Loss of salvation

Gr8Grace

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Did the prodigal son die physically or spiritually?

Your dead to me. We have ABSOLUTELY NO FELLOWSHIP in His word.

Are you physically or spiritually dead?

You are not physically dead. I can't claim that you are spiritually dead...........but our fellowship is DEAD.
 
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JLB777

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This was my answer:
"I certainly don't teach anyone that works are required for salvation. Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. That's what I teach.

Do you teach that works are required for salvation?"

But you failed to answer mine. Please answer my question.


I didn’t mention works.

No one is saved by works.


Do you believe people need to obey Jesus Christ in order to be saved?


Yes or No?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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So your teaching born again Christians are in need of salvation?


If they become lost, they need salvation.



Do you believe people need to obey Jesus Christ in order to be saved?


Yes or No?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I didn’t mention works.
You mentioned obedience. How do you obey apart from works?

No one is saved by works.
You need to proof read your posts, then. Because they sure smack of salvation by obedience.

Do you believe people need to obey Jesus Christ in order to be saved?
They need to do what Paul told the jailer how to be saved. Do you believe what Paul told the jailer what he MUST DO to be saved? Yes or No?
 
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DNB

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1. Shortly after everything began, I was at church listening to the sermon lost in my thoughts of being condemned and begging that the Lord would restore me when I momentarily snapped out of it and heard the pastor say, "Do not fear the new thing that the Lord is doing." I remember it resonated with my heart much like how the the Lord would speak to me through the Word or through teaching.
2. I was on the phone with my mom one night rambling on about what was going on when she said, "You need to return to your first love." My heart reacted again deeply to that.
3. Then finally the pastor's wife in the mental hospital feeling as though I had not lost my salvation.

Is suicide my only option? What else is there for me if not Christ? What must I do that I might taste true brokenness over sin and repentance that I might know Christ personally again? What is life without Christ? lot.
What you're talking about here, bathelter, is very serious, you shouldn't be asking unprofessionals or people not trained in these type of crisis, to offer you insight in how to deal with your depression.
Yes, Christians are the salt of the earth, and the wisest of people on the earth, but each has their calling. Not all are counselors or have words of wisdom, or gifts of healing (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).
You sound very unreasonable bathelter, you're being extremely hard on yourself and somewhat naive.
You've clearly displayed your love and desire for Christ, simply by expressing your concern about your salvation. I do believe, that a lot of us has lost the passion and zeal that was so indicative of the early days of our inception into the Faith. In this, you are not alone. You want to talk about sin, I can tell you about sin, and what an immature weakling that i am in dealing with it. In this, you are not alone either. At least we are denouncing it, and not approving of it, ...or calling right wrong, and wrong right (Isaiah 5:20). Reconsider how lost that you really are?
bathelter, you're here expressing your concern for Christ, consider the implications of such a desire, ...it typically means that you care about Christ.
Plus, there are Faith Counselors on this site (I saw the advertisements in several places), they deal with such issues from a Christian perspective. Have you considered talking to them, for they are trained and very knowledgeable in these types of problems?
 
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JLB777

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You mentioned obedience. How do you obey apart from works?


You need to proof read your posts, then. Because they sure smack of salvation by obedience.


They need to do what Paul told the jailer how to be saved. Do you believe what Paul told the jailer what he MUST DO to be saved? Yes or No?


Obeying the Lord is just another way of saying “following” Him.


Obeying the Lord is how we will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.


Do you believe people who disobey the Lord, will receive eternal salvation?



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Obeying the Lord is just another way of saying “following” Him.

Obeying the Lord is how we will receive eternal salvation.
No it isn't. And you haven't proven your opinion.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
This doesn't prove your opinion.

It does prove your misunderstanding of Scripture, however.

Before explaining once more what "obedience" refers to here, please FIRST explain how Jesus "has been perfected".

Do you believe that He wasn't quite perfect before the cross, and that by going to the cross, He became perfect?

Please answer. Failure to do so will only demonstrate your true lack of interest in really understanding this verse.

Do you believe people who disobey the Lord, will receive eternal salvation?
First explain what "has been perfected" means in reference to our Lord. Then I'll answer. There are 4 reasons why Heb 5:9 doesn't mean eternal salvation in the way you think it does.

But you first.
 
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JLB777

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No it isn't. And you haven't proven your opinion.

Follow certainly means obey.

How can a disciple follow his teachers instruction if he doesn’t obey him?


Here is the definition of the word follow from John 10:27-28.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28



Follow - G190 - akoloutheō
  1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him

  2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
    1. side with his party
The result of hearing His Voice and following Him is receiving eternal life.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


  • He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.





JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Follow certainly means obey.
What you can't prove is that any kind of behavior or lifestyle results in having eternal life. What I HAVE proved from Scripture is that eternal life is received on the basis of believing in Christ.

Only then is lifestyle and behavior an issue for the believer. And lifestyle and behavior is NEVER an issue for an unbeliever to become saved.

How can a disciple follow his teachers instruction if he doesn’t obey him?
He can't, and this is irrelevant to the issue.

The result of hearing His Voice and following Him is receiving eternal life.
Again, what you CANNOT PROVE is that there is anything in John 10:27 that RESULTS in receiving eternal life.

The following verses tell us clearly HOW to receive and have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please count the number of verses listed that mentions ANY BEHAVIOR OR LIFESTYLE, OR FOLLOWING. And then at least cite them.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
After quoting these 21 verses, you really think that your single verse trumpts them all??

Quit dreaming. Realize that BECAUSE of the 21 verses listed, it is YOUR faulty understanding of Heb 5:9 that is the issue.

btw, you have harped in the past about the issue of believers taking the mark of the beast and going to hell. Even though there is NO evidence in Scripture that any believer will do that. The warning is for unbelievers who do that.

Rev 13:8 - All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Rev 17:8 sheds more light on who will take the mark of the beast:

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Notice the PAST TENSE (aorist) regarding WHEN names are written in the book of life: from the creation of the world.

So, God wrote ALL the names of those who would believe "from the creation of the world". And so all who NEVER believed were NOT WRITTEN in the book.

In Rev 13:8, it is those whose names "have not been written in the book of life" who will be those who take the mark of the beast.

So again, your opinion about believers taking the mark is unfounded. Totally.
 
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JLB777

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13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Believe = Obey


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


In the original language believe carries the meaning of trust and obey.


Unbelief is used interchangeably for disobedience.


Example:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not
believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB



Please explain to all of us, how disobedient people will receive eternal life.


Those who obey Him will receive eternal life.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Disobedience is hate.

Obedience is love.





JLB



 
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FreeGrace2

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Believe = Obey
Your opinion has not been proven. In fact, obedience is REWARDED at the Bema. Salvation is by GRACE, which is NOT by works.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I know. That's what I've been trying to get you to understand. The possession of eternal life is based on believing in Christ.


[QUOTE[]In the original language believe carries the meaning of trust and obey.[/QUOTE]
No it doesn't.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not
believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

Aren't you aware of the DIFFERENT Greek words in this verse.

"believes" is pisteuo.
"does not believe" is apietho.

Do they look the same and interchangeable to you?


“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB

It is obvious to reasonable people that apietho in this verse refers to obedience in believing the gospel. Not anything about lifestyle or behavior, as you keep trying to insert.


Please explain to all of us, how disobedient people will receive eternal life.
Thanks for the easy question.

Jesus said whoever believes HAS (POSSESSES) eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47

Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Case closed.

Those who obey Him will receive eternal life.
No, those who believe in Him. The Greek word for "believe" means to trust. There is no sense of trusting in the Greek "obedience" words.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
That's correct. There are a whole lot of ignorant believers out there.


Disobedience is hate.
I'd like to see the source of your strange claim.


Obedience is love.
Ditto here.

Aren't you even the slightest bit aware that slaves are forced to OBEY their masters.

So, are you going to argue that slaves LOVE their masters???
 
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JLB777

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Your opinion has not been proven. In fact, obedience is REWARDED at the Bema. Salvation is by GRACE, which is NOT by works.


I know. That's what I've been trying to get you to understand. The possession of eternal life is based on believing in Christ.


[QUOTE[]In the original language believe carries the meaning of trust and obey.
No it doesn't.


Aren't you aware of the DIFFERENT Greek words in this verse.

"believes" is pisteuo.
"does not believe" is apietho.

Do they look the same and interchangeable to you?



It is obvious to reasonable people that apietho in this verse refers to obedience in believing the gospel. Not anything about lifestyle or behavior, as you keep trying to insert.



Thanks for the easy question.

Jesus said whoever believes HAS (POSSESSES) eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47

Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Case closed.


No, those who believe in Him. The Greek word for "believe" means to trust. There is no sense of trusting in the Greek "obedience" words.



That's correct. There are a whole lot of ignorant believers out there.



I'd like to see the source of your strange claim.



Ditto here.

Aren't you even the slightest bit aware that slaves are forced to OBEY their masters.

So, are you going to argue that slaves LOVE their masters???
[/QUOTE]

Only people who obey Jesus Christ will be saved.


“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB




Do you agree or disagree.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Only people who obey Jesus Christ will be saved.
You are proven wrong by Scripture itself.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB
The issue here is "he who believes HAS eternal life". That's it. And you haven't shown from any Greek source that the Greek word for 'believe' includes obedience.

Obedience is an only an issue for those who have already believed.

It does an unsaved person NO GOOD to tell them to obey the Bible. Way too vague.

And NO ONE is saved by changing their lifestyle.

Do you agree or disagree.
I agree with the Bible and I totally and strongly disagree with your opinions.
 
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JLB777

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You are proven wrong by Scripture itself.


Your opinion doesn’t change truth.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



Thank you for exposing your doctrine that promotes disobedience, which produces sons of disobedience.


Those who obey the Lord will receive everlasting salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"You are proven wrong by Scripture itself."
Your opinion doesn’t change truth.
I don't have an opinion. I have the truth, Scripture itself. Which proves your opinion wrong.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
Have you not looked up the Greek word for "does not obey" yet? OK, I'll do your work for you.

Strong's Greek: 544. ἀπειθέω (apeitheó) -- to disobey

544. apeitheó ►. ... HELPS Word-studies. Cognate: 544 apeithéō – literally,
refuse to be persuaded
(by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia). ...
//biblehub.com/str/greek/544.htm - 24k

Bingo.

Thank you for exposing your doctrine that promotes disobedience, which produces sons of disobedience.
On the contrary, it is your own opinionated theology that teaches people that salvation comes from lifestyle and/or behavior, which is a LIE.

Only trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross is one saved.

Your opinionated theology is to trust in your own work of lifestyle and/or behavior for salvation.

Mother Theresa once wrote a book, and the 2nd chapter was entitled "we do it all for Jesus". Yet, in her writings was clear evidence of just how much she doubted her own salvation. I would expect that she will be among those Jesus noted in Matt 7:21-23.

Those who obey the Lord will receive everlasting salvation.
Only IF you mean will be persuaded by the Lord that He died for them and will save them if they trust in Him for salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9 JLB
Why are you so resistant to believing in Christ, or faith in Christ for salvation?

What was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved?

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He didn't say to "obey Jesus". He said: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. Acts 16:30,31
 
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JLB777

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I said:
"You are proven wrong by Scripture itself."

I don't have an opinion. I have the truth, Scripture itself. Which proves your opinion wrong.


Have you not looked up the Greek word for "does not obey" yet? OK, I'll do your work for you.

Strong's Greek: 544. ἀπειθέω (apeitheó) -- to disobey

544. apeitheó ►. ... HELPS Word-studies. Cognate: 544 apeithéō – literally,
refuse to be persuaded
(by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia). ...
//biblehub.com/str/greek/544.htm - 24k

Bingo.


On the contrary, it is your own opinionated theology that teaches people that salvation comes from lifestyle and/or behavior, which is a LIE.

Only trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross is one saved.

Your opinionated theology is to trust in your own work of lifestyle and/or behavior for salvation.

Mother Theresa once wrote a book, and the 2nd chapter was entitled "we do it all for Jesus". Yet, in her writings was clear evidence of just how much she doubted her own salvation. I would expect that she will be among those Jesus noted in Matt 7:21-23.


Only IF you mean will be persuaded by the Lord that He died for them and will save them if they trust in Him for salvation.


Why are you so resistant to believing in Christ, or faith in Christ for salvation?

What was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved?

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He didn't say to "obey Jesus". He said: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. Acts 16:30,31


Your opinion doesn’t change truth.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



Thank you for exposing your doctrine that promotes disobedience, which produces sons of disobedience.


Those who obey the Lord will receive everlasting salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


JLB
 
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JLB777

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I said:
"You are proven wrong by Scripture itself."

I don't have an opinion. I have the truth, Scripture itself. Which proves your opinion wrong.


Have you not looked up the Greek word for "does not obey" yet? OK, I'll do your work for you.

Strong's Greek: 544. ἀπειθέω (apeitheó) -- to disobey

544. apeitheó ►. ... HELPS Word-studies. Cognate: 544 apeithéō – literally,
refuse to be persuaded
(by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia). ...
//biblehub.com/str/greek/544.htm - 24k

Bingo.


On the contrary, it is your own opinionated theology that teaches people that salvation comes from lifestyle and/or behavior, which is a LIE.

Only trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross is one saved.

Your opinionated theology is to trust in your own work of lifestyle and/or behavior for salvation.

Mother Theresa once wrote a book, and the 2nd chapter was entitled "we do it all for Jesus". Yet, in her writings was clear evidence of just how much she doubted her own salvation. I would expect that she will be among those Jesus noted in Matt 7:21-23.


Only IF you mean will be persuaded by the Lord that He died for them and will save them if they trust in Him for salvation.


Why are you so resistant to believing in Christ, or faith in Christ for salvation?

What was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved?

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He didn't say to "obey Jesus". He said: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. Acts 16:30,31


Once we are “in Christ”, we must remain “in Christ” or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


  • he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,


We are called to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord.




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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Your opinion doesn’t change truth.
I haven't shared my opinion. I share the truth.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
I've already explained the Greek word "apietho" and what it means.

Your repeated quoting of the verse also doesn't change its meaning to what you would prefer it to mean. It means "refuse to be persuaded".
 
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FreeGrace2

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Once we are “in Christ”, we must remain “in Christ” or be cast into the fire and burned.[
Your opinions are not supported in Scripture.

In fact, the method of being "in Christ" is found in Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The red words indicate the status of being "in Christ", by the words "included in Christ".

The blue words indicate that the sealing with the Holy Spirit, or the indwelling of the Spirit, is the WAY the believer is "included in Christ".

But, there is more; much more. The very next verse.

v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words refer to the Holy Spirit and the sealing ministry is called a deposit.

The blue words indicate that this sealing ministry of the Spirit is a GUARANTEE OF the believer's inheritance. This is quite obviously eternal security.

The green words refer to those sealed with the Holy Spirit, described as God's possession since the Holyt Spirit is indwelling them and GUARANTEEING the believer's inheritance until redemption, which would be the first resurrection.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
And I've already explained what Jesus meant by "abiding", since it is a reciprocal relationship for the purpose of bearing fruit, not getting or staying saved.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Nonsense. Eph 1:13,14 is a GUARANTEE for those sealed with the Spirit for the day of redemption.

There is NO WAY for any believer to be "removed from Christ" or can lose their indwelling Holy Spirit.

So all your claims are merely opinions, and totally unbiblical.

We are called to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord.
Yes, we are. But not to stay saved. To bear fruit.
 
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