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Has my sin killed me spiritually? Loss of salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by bathelter01, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. bathelter01

    bathelter01 New Member

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    My question ultimately concerns falling away from Christ due to repeated sin issues. I'm curious if Matthew 13:7, Romans 8:13 and James 1:15 connect and describe what has happened to me in my loss of relationship, unrenewal of mind and hardened heart. My questions while reading the following are:
    1. Will sin kill a believer spiritually that they will ultimately lose Christ?
    2. I what I'm experiencing a sign that I was never a believer and, even though I had know Christ and grown in him for 16 years, that I was not a believer? That the Word was choked out of me because of my sin?

    I'll start from the beginning to try and make everything as clear as possible. Sorry if this is super long.

    I grew up in a Christian household and had a false conversion experience when I was around 5. One where I aimed to please my parents but there was no change in my heart or life. Fast forward to when I was 10. I went to a multi-day retreat with my youth group and was convicted that my previous confession was not true and that I did not know Christ. I responded to the gospel and saw a change in my desires and heart. A hatred for sin and a desire to live for Christ. Shortly there after I was exposed to pornography for the first time. The behavior got out of hand and I eventually became addicted. I would become highly irritable or physically nauseous if I was not able to view pornography that day. Eventually my parents discovered what was going on and removed the internet from my access. I saw a renewal in my relationship with Christ within the following years. A renewed desire for him. Desire to be in his Word. A desire to resist sin and follow him.
    This continued up until college where, after a breakup, I became depressed, isolated and turned back to pornography to medicate. Eventually, after a year or so, the Lord brought me to repentance and I found renewed spiritual growth and desire for him again. I found a good community of guys pursuing Christ at my church that pushed one another to follow Christ. The Lord grew in me a heart for evangelism and missions over the course of those few years.
    However, once I graduated from college, I was unable to find a job and had to move back in with my parents in my old hometown. I lost my church and community and was unable to find another community that seemed to be serious about serving Christ. Once again, I became depressed and lonely turning to pornography again to medicate. The addiction became full blown again for years. Constantly being convicted by the Spirit to repent and hearing the Lord's voice in the matter through the Word. Repentance was off and on. Repenting well at some points but being isolated and continuing to fall back into sin. It was a constant struggle and I hated myself for being involved in this sin. I could see that it was affecting my relationship with Christ but I was seemingly powerless to stop the behavior. I was talking to my mentor who was the missions pastor at my church about going to seminary, as I had felt in the past that the Lord was leading me to missions. He encouraged me to go knowing that I was struggling with sexual sin. I was also teaching a weekly Bible study at the time.
    Two years ago, after my first semester of seminary I had fallen to sexual temptation and viewed pornography that night but something terrifying happened. I felt no conviction or remorse. Just totally empty and unfeeling. It scared me half to death. My heart felt so hard and unfeeling. This terrified me in my mind but not in my heart. It just felt dull and numb. The next day I was off work so I spent the whole day seeking the Lord and trying to figure out what had happened. My heart felt uncaring and unrepentant. At one point that morning I remember feeling something being torn out of my heart and feeling as though there was a void in my heart. That place where I used to go in the depths of my heart to humble myself and draw near to Christ was inaccessible now. I couldn't feel the brokenness or godly sorrow I once felt about my sin. I felt completely stripped of the joy of knowing Christ replaced with tangible feelings of terror, separation and confusion. I went to the Word to spend time with the Lord and it was like someone had turned out the lights. My eyes looked over the passages that I had read and underlined so many times and they made no sense. I remember thinking, "This looks so stupid. Why does anyone believe this?" 1 Corinthians 1:18 immediately popped into my mind. This sent me spiraling. Non stop panic attacks. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't think straight. I spent days and nights crying out to the Lord that he would not take the Spirit from me and that he would allow me to return to relationship with him. I saw a stark change in my mind and heart over that time. Not only did the Word no longer make sense or resonate with my heart, I couldn't remember who the Lord was. I couldn't remember my life with the Lord, what he had done in my life or why I had been confident I was a believer. I couldn't remember why I loved God or why I should worship him. I couldn't even remember my testimony. My past with the Lord was hazy and felt like thinking back to a dream. It was as though, in a moment, my faith dried up. I remember crying out over and over again, "Lord, please don't do this." I knew I had not desired to be separated from Christ but it intensely seemed to be so. I didn't know what I believed anymore and the things I still knew felt false. I cried out to the Lord, but my heart was so hard my repentance didn't feel real. I wasn't really broken. Even my fear was no longer of being separated from God, but of condemnation. My heart had become extremely resistant to the Lord and I felt extreme rage toward him. There was no love for the Lord in my heart anymore. (And even 2 years later, I see no movement of the Spirit, no change in heart or anything. I don't see the Lord rearranging my heart and moving my desires. Just deadness in my heart.)
    This sent me spiraling even harder. I began meeting with close brothers in Christ and explaining the situation confessing what I had done. However, nothing changed. I eventually got the idea that I had become apostate and that there was no way to return to Christ or that I had become like Esau and was unable to repent. Then the thought, "If there's no hope of restoration, and I'm doomed to hell, I should go now while I only have 20 something years of sin to pay for than wait until I'm 60 and have 60 years of sinning to pay for." At this point I was seeing Christian therapists who were also trying to walk me through this time. Eventually, things hit super rock bottom and my psychologist said that I needed to check into a mental institution and go under suicide watch. My time there was filled with all the same. Not sleeping, barely eating and panic attacks. Strangely enough, I ran into a woman who was also a patient there that was leading a Bible study each night before bed. She was a pastor's wife who had also had a mental breakdown. I explained my situation and she said she believed I had not yet lost my salvation. Eventually, I was released and have continued to struggle with the reality of what I'm experiencing. Three things have kept me from completely losing hope and going through with it thus far:
    1. Shortly after everything began, I was at church listening to the sermon lost in my thoughts of being condemned and begging that the Lord would restore me when I momentarily snapped out of it and heard the pastor say, "Do not fear the new thing that the Lord is doing." I remember it resonated with my heart much like how the the Lord would speak to me through the Word or through teaching.
    2. I was on the phone with my mom one night rambling on about what was going on when she said, "You need to return to your first love." My heart reacted again deeply to that.
    3. Then finally the pastor's wife in the mental hospital feeling as though I had not lost my salvation.

    I'm just not sure what to do anymore. It's been 2 years and I still feel completely cut off from Christ, with a heart that doesn't understand why sin is such a big deal and that isn't broken over sin. I see so clearly how my life is not longer like it was when I knew Christ. I see how deeply my desires have changed from desiring Christ to desiring nothing. My heart doesn't cry out for Christ and I don't hunger for the Word. My faith feels nonexistent. I know the truth is true because I experienced life with Christ. I have known him and walked with him. But that is clearly not the case anymore. I'm fearful that, as I feel he's slowly slipping away from me, that I will forget him completely. I'm not sure if he will hold me or not due to my sin.
    What do I do when I wake up and I don't feel like this is a big deal anymore? Am I like Esau? What is my response now?Is suicide my only option? What else is there for me if not Christ? What must I do that I might taste true brokenness over sin and repentance that I might know Christ personally again? What is life without Christ?
    What do I practically do now? What does my daily walk look like now. Time in the Word and in prayer is seemingly unprofitable. My heart isn't changing.

    If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Sorry for any rambling. I know I've asked a lot a written a lot.
     
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  2. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    You wrote a lot i did not read it all, But if you understand how a person receives eternal life and i am not sure that you do (because you seem to base your salvation on your actions whether good or bad).

    But if you do or if you do not, either way, here is what gives a person eternal life that can not be lost.

    If a person believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from Old Testament prophecies. And trust in the Messiah (Jesus) for the gift of His eternal life. Then that person has received eternal life that can not be lost. Why because receiving the gift of eternal life is not based on any actions a person does.
    The only work required to receive eternal life is belief,trust,faith. The person who has believed has crossed over from death to life.

    Read the Gospel of John that book testifies to the truth of eternal life
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  3. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

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    Questions please then it's pretty straightforward awnser
     
  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I read your title about if you have been killed spiritually, I thought of >

    "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

    But I think you are indicating that you are a guy. But the principle can go for us men > if someone is living in pleasure, he also can be dead while he lives. I think part of what this means is we can be love-dead while we are seeking to use people only or mainly for pleasure.

    So, instead of trying to figure out what label to give yourself, do not live in pleasure, and keep offering yourself to Jesus. There is no one else to trust!
    There are different ideas about how this can work. I am going to offer what I have learned in connection with the Bible.

    Our Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2).

    This spirit of Satan can drive people to pleasures, including of pornography. And Satan's evil and selfish spirit is desperate to feel pleasure. So, if anyone effectively messes with a pleasure which is a treasure, this evil spirit can have you getting very upset, downcast, nasty, and angry and crazy acting. So, this is a reason not to give in to any driving ungentle unhumble stuff which is actually trying to waste us and weaken us for pleasure, because then that weakness also keeps us weak so we can suffer in a lot of shame and blaming and depression and frustration and confusion and pain about not getting things we want.

    And, more than this, our pleasure seeking is not first about pleasing our Father by being like Jesus and loving like Jesus.

    So, one needs to trust in Jesus > Ephesians 2:2 < for all He desires to do with us.

    "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up His cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

    And we need to personally submit to Him . . . not only try to copy-cat what others are telling us to do, or what we think we are supposed to get ourselves to do!

    "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-30)

    You say you walked with Jesus, for a while. Walking with Christ includes personally submitting to Him in His peace, and doing what He has us doing in His "yoke" of His love and leading. And any time we get away from this and realize this, right away we stop and seek God to correct us and restore us into sweet and sensitive sharing with Him, then discover what He has us doing with Him. What He then has us do might not be what we were doing, if we were losing "rest for your souls". Or, once we are more with God, He might have us doing the same thing but better than how we were trying to do it.

    So, instead of trying to figure out what label should be put on you, trust in Jesus however you need to, God be the Good Judge about what really is needed, and do what Jesus has you doing with Him in His "rest for your souls".

    By the way . . . God is quiet, not silent. So, by being quiet in His love, we can be pleasing to Him and submissive to Him, in His love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) So, I would say do not let any unquiet and nasty stuff in you control your attention, but look to Him, and do not trust any doubt and questioning stuff < do not trust that stuff, in any case. But trust God to be our Good Judge who knows what to do with us.

    And, by the way, do not use anyone for pleasure. Porn is a way of using women who are ruined and need love and caring prayer. So, if you know of ones who are doing what is wrong, do not use them but care for them in prayer. Porn, then, is not medicine, but anti-love. And Jesus wants us to love any and all people.

    So, may you be encouraged to desire to find out how to love any and all people. God bless you :)
     
  5. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    Go get the others who are lost!

    “Must I go, and empty-handed,”
    Thus my dear Redeemer meet?
    Not one day of service give Him,
    Lay no trophy at His feet?
    “Must I go, and empty-handed?”
    Must I meet my Savior so?
    Not one soul with which to greet Him:
    Must I empty-handed go?
    2
    Not at death I shrink nor falter,
    For my Savior saves me now;
    But to meet Him empty-handed,
    Thought of that now clouds my brow.
    3
    O the years in sinning wasted;
    Could I but recall them now,
    I would give them to my Savior,
    To His will I’d gladly bow.
    4
    O ye saints, arouse, be earnest,
    Up and work while yet ’tis day;
    Ere the night of death o’ertake thee,
    Strive for souls while still you may."
    Hymn: Must I go, and empty-handed


    Ecclesiastes 11:1

    "Cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will find it again."

    The enemy is attacking...strike back...and if you go down, go down swinging. A desperate man is a dangerous man...remember those in darkness and who are staring death in the face...as you are...and do the works He has prepared for you!
     
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  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The important question is: Is Jesus a complete Saviour or just a partial one?

    When you confess your sins to God as per 1 John 1:9, is all of your past sin forgiven or just some of them? Are you completely cleansed from all unrighteousness or just cleansed from some of it?

    Is God mistaken or lying when He said, "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more"?

    How many times a day would God forgive you if you confessed a sin and asked for forgiveness and cleansing? Seven times, or seventy times seven?
     
  7. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    You can still be pulled back. You have a heart and soul which is deeply distressed, and conflicted. At least you still know good from evil, and long to be good.

    Repent, and begin to let Christ help and heal you. I struggle with gluttony, anger, and pride. I still stumble on these points, but over all, God has helped these very jagged edges dull down far blunter than they were.

    Part of our Christian walk is about struggling against the flesh. It is done a once and done deal and yes, Satan will seek every opportunity to trip you up.

    Sin does harm our soul, and harm our relationship with God, as you have found. But He is also a loving, merciful, forgiving God, who want us to stand, and follow Him, with His help. You can do this! God will help you.
     
  8. Jesusfollower223

    Jesusfollower223 New Member

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  9. Jesusfollower223

    Jesusfollower223 New Member

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    Hey, I'm feeling this exact way! It's ruining me and I'm scared.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2020
  10. Jesusfollower223

    Jesusfollower223 New Member

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    You should contact me via messenger thanks
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  11. bobsmename

    bobsmename Member

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    May I ask you something. Have you ever believed Jesus died for your sins, which includes lust? Only if you fear lust will send you to hell, you will always lose the battle not to lust/ie view porn.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Here are some excerpts from the OP, with comments:

    Believers can fall away from Christ, but this isn't loss of salvation. It is loss of the intimacy of fellowship.

    #1 No, sin kills fellowship, just as any offense kills fellowship between spouses.
    #2 No, what you are experiencing is loss of fellowship. You are alienated from Christ because of your behavior.

    This indicates that you ARE saved. And Jesus said that those who believe for salvation HAVE eternal life. That life cannot die, obviously, and is an irrevocable gift, per Rom 11:29.

    Another clear indication that you ARE saved.

    Unbelievers don't hear the voice of the Lord through the Word.

    This is the problem.

    You are powerless to stop the behavior. If one's will could solve the problem, God wouldn't have given the Holy Spirit to His children. Trying to stop sinful behavior from one's own "power" or will is just trying to fix the problem from our own "righteousness". However, the Bible says this:
    Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (literally, used menstrual rags!!); we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

    This is why your attempts have failed.

    It seems that 1 Pet 5:7 is in play here.

    " Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." It seems the enemy has devoured you. The solution is to be alert and sober minded. To be explained.

    Loss of fellowship over time will result in this, just as it is in human relationships, whether in marriage or a close friendship.

    I will share what the Bible says to do.

    The red words show that you know the truth. The problem is in your emotions and lack of biblical understanding of how the Christian life works.

    Well, you don't really know ALL the truth, as revealed in this statement.

    John 10:28,29
    28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

    Eternal security stated in black and white. Jesus is the One who give the gift of eternal life (v.28a) and the result of that gift, the recipient shall never perish (v.28b).

    Then Jesus says that no one (no person, including you, if you are a person ;) ) can snatch you out of His hand (v.28c) nor out of His Father's hand (v.29).

    If salvation can be lost, then no one can be saved. Period.

    Now to address the issues.

    When a believer sins, fellowship is broken with the Lord. The solution to restoring fellowship is confession of sin, 1 John 1:9.

    Along with confession, the believer must understand repentance. It isn't emotional. It's an act of turning away from the sin you've confessed. This would include NOT viewing porn, or thinking of porn.

    Also, the Bible commands the believer to be filled with the Spirit (Gal 5:18). Paul also pointed out that the believer who walks by the Spirit will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, in Gal 5:16. The Holy Spirit is the power source for living the Christian life. As previously noted, trying to live the Christian life from your own will (power) will fail miserably, because our righteousnesses are like used menstrual rags to God. That's just more offense to Him.

    So, how does the believer walk by the Spirit and be filled by Him? Both commands are God's will for the believer, obviously. Everything He commands is His will for the believer.

    1 John 5:14,15
    14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
    15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

    The red words indicate that the believer needs to ASK God to fill him/her with the Spirit. The blue words indicate that we must do this in faith, and not doubting. The green words indicate the confidence (faith) that God WILL answer such prayers.

    It seems many pastors will say, "yield to the Spirit" or "submit to the Spirit" in order to be filled with the Spirit. While that is true, such wording is too vague to really be helpful. That's what I heard as a young person and wondered how one yields or submits to the Spirit. What does that look like?

    Well, confessing your sins cleanses you from all sin, and puts you on praying grounds.

    Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

    iow, if sin isn't confessed, the Lord isn't listening to your prayers. Because there is no fellowship between the believer and the Lord.

    So, confess your sins (don't beg for forgiveness. 1 Jn 1:9) says forgiveness is by confession). Then ask God for the filling of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:18) to empower you to resist temptation. Then repent by avoiding the sins.

    Paul spoke several times about having a mindset on "things above", rather than on "things below". iow, think about the Holy Spirit, about heavenly reward for obedience, etc.

    The "things below" refer to the mundane things of this world and include sin.

    I hope this helps.

    God bless.
     
  13. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    John 5:14, NASB: "Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, 'Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.'"



    (John 9:3). Here, however, Jesus' words seem to connect the man's prior condition to sin. It may have been that the man's disability was the result of personal choices. At the same time, Jesus may simply be reminding the man that there are worse things than being crippled, including the eternal penalties of sin (Luke 12:4–5).

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

    I truly believe in the verse above.
    I've been there and returned to sin
    turned out to always get worse.

    Followed by a still worse relapse.

    God is trying to warn us and protect us.

    M-Bob
     
  14. shakewell

    shakewell Active Member

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    No.

    If you were never a believer you didn't grow in Him for 16 seconds, let alone 16 years. You have to be born before you can grow. A born again person never dies spiritually and never looses Christ.
     
  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes.

    The Lord taught us this principle in the lost sheep and prodigal son.


    “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


    • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

    His sheep had become lost.

    Lost = Separated from God; a sinner in need of repentance.
    Dead to God.


    • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


    The one who became lost was no longer justified but had become disconnected from Him.

    The 99 who remained were just.




    JLB
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    bathelter01 said:
    1. Will sin kill a believer spiritually that they will ultimately lose Christ?
    If so, then Jesus was UNtruthful in John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 10:28.

    No He didn't. He said nothing about "losing Christ". Nor does the Bible use such words. That is a man made-up doctrine.

    I don't see anything about "losing Christ" because of sin.

    I'd love to see any verse that says "no longer justified". You got any? Or is this just another man made-up doctrine?
     
  17. Pat Ritchey

    Pat Ritchey New Member

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  18. Pat Ritchey

    Pat Ritchey New Member

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    My heart goes out to you. I can relate to ur pain and increased anguish. My hope is that you will consider contacting the therapist on this site working thru the issues u have described. I do not believe you have lost your salvation. Ummm is there a 12 step group for porn addition much like Alcoholics Anonymous? I encourage you to consider that possibility. There is hope and support available. And light at the end of the tunnel :)
     
  19. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    This is what the teaching of the lost sheep and prodigal son are about.

    Returning to God.

    All heaven rejoices when one of His sheep return to Him, and are reconciled back to God.




    JLB
     
  20. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    People who promote their man made theology and opinion, then “tag” their opinion with a scripture reference, always seem to have something to hide.


    It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
    Luke 15:32


    • for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.


    Was this brother physically dead, or spiritually dead?




    JLB
     
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