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Featured Has Muslim Theology influenced Iconoclasm?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Not David, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    This is a clever theory, but has no basis in the actual history of the Church. Even a cursory reading of the early Church fathers and an elementary knowledge of the nature of worship (Liturgy) in the early Church will very easily dismiss such a theory as something simply imagined. And if Mary is so strong and Jesus so weak, like you claim, then why does Mary gesture towards her son (as in the icon that is my avatar on the left) with her right hand, to indicate that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, rather than herself?

    What I find to be really unfortunate is the manner in which you perceive Christ on the cross -- as helpless and/or dead. This could not be further from God revealed Truth. Because it is precisely in that hour of His being sacrificed on the cross that Christ God is most greatly glorified in our hearts, because He chose to suffer and die on the cross, for our sake and in His unfathomable Love for us. Nobody had the power to take His Life from Him. He has the power to lay down His human Life, and to take it back up again, because He is the Word of God and the author of all created life itself. His death triumphs over the power of evil, because in it lies buried the seed of His Resurrection, and the promise of the impending resurrection to Eternal Life for all who believe in Him.

    "... we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles". (1 Corinthians 1:23)
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Respect is veneration, to venerate means to treat something with great respect. If Solomon bowed his head to face the house of God that’s veneration.
     
  4. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    No ma'am, its not an idea gotten from Roman Catholics. Its what I know from experience in the Life of the Orthodox faith, because of certain, personally undeniable encounters I've had with God which are associated with a particular icon that was originally written by the Evangelist Luke. This icon is of the miraculous myrrh streaming kind. And real Catholics don't worship the Theotokos. They venerate her, and there is a huge difference between the veneration of those who Love God and the worship of the Only God. Ours is always the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not a gospel of Mary.

    I know it to be true from experience, as has been revealed to me, and to us, in the Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  5. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    We know from experience that a space can be venerated. It is a common aspect of Orthodox Christian Liturgical piety, and it is modeled upon the Liturgical piety that was practiced by pious Jews. Moses talked to God "face to face", but he climbed to the top of Mount Horeb and God spoke to Him from within a bush that was burning but not being consumed by the fire:
    "And He (God) said: 'Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.'
    Moreover He said: 'I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:5-6) ... "ye shall serve God upon this mountain." (Exodus 3:12).

    The woman at the well is St. Photini. She is an Orthodox Christian who is taught by the Holy Spirit to worship in spirit and in Truth. We are not Jews who worshiped only in the temple in Jerusalem. We are of those times that Christ said were coming where God is worshiped everywhere, in spirit and in Truth, because the Holy Spirit of God is everywhere. But the worship of God in spirit and in Truth is happening inside of buildings called "churches", wherein there tends to be multitudes of various sensory/physical aspects to this true worship, because we must also use our physical senses to enter into the knowledge of God in the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You mean like the Evangelicals who do rock concerts in Church and believe in that version Holy Spirit which they turned into something like Simon the magician would love.
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The online definition of veneration:

    great respect; reverence.

    You assume the faith of Moses didn’t teach that Jews are to face the Temple and the Holy of Holies in prayer. There’s proof in both the Tanakh and Jewish oak law that Jews should face the Temple in prayer. Even today Jews all over the world face the western wall and the remains of the Temple in Jerusalem. Jews did have venerable for the Holy of Holies which is why it had a veil covering it and the high priest could only see it once a year.
     
  8. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, because if scripture is clear on anything it’s that God wants us to pray to buildings, paintings, stained glass windows, statues, and golden calfs. :oldthumbsup:
     
  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It’s clear that in scripture certain objects were venerated.
     
  10. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    If you need to misrepresent what people wrote in order to make your point, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I was referring to 2 Chronicles 5:7-10
     
  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Sure. If you could get off your knees, put down the incense and candles, and step away from the Virgin Mary statue for a moment, please tell me all about it. :oldthumbsup:
     
  13. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please don’t comment on Icons or statues if you misinterpret scripture, so please step away from misinterpreting scripture for a moment.
     
  14. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    By misinterpreting scripture do you mean like claiming the Israelites prayed to the temple (#173) only to realize they didn't (#175)? :wave:
     
  15. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Barbarian observes:
    If you need to misrepresent what people wrote in order to make your point, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?

    This seems to be an emotional issue with you. Instead of resenting other Christians, focus on loving God. Everything else will come from that.
     
  16. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Your projection is duly noted.
     
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where did I say they prayed to the temple? I said they prayed facing the temple. Which they did as Solomon did.
     
  18. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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  19. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    You'd probably do better, if you calmed down a bit and worked on forming a cogent argument.
    Anger is a weapon you use to harm yourself.
     
  20. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Your continued projection is duly noted.
     
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