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Has Daniel 7 been fullfilled yet?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Debbie, Feb 19, 2002.

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  1. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Has Daniel 7 been fullfilled yet?
    I am of the opinion that it has not yet been fullfilled, but interested in everyone's views. Thanks.
     
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  2. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Parts of Dan 7 are already fulfilled. I'm going to do this quickly off the top of my head so please verify through an independent source before you take any of this as gospel.

    The beasts rising from the sea represent four kingdoms, the first being (babylon?) the one where the king went nuts and ate grass with the beasts of the field. I think the second was the medes-persians who defeated the first kingdom. I can't remember the third but it was the kingdom which followed Media/Persia, and the final beast is Rome.
     
  3. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Hi again Debbie,

    Just thought I'd share my thoughts on this to you.

    When I think of Daniel I can’t ever forget the vision of the image given to King Nebuchadnezzar which Daniel not only told him the dream that he could not remember, but interpreted it as well.

    Daniel 2:31-49:
    Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
    Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
    This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
    And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
    And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

    Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of a great image that was in 4 parts representing 4 kingdoms. The 1st was a head of gold (Babylon), the 2nd was breast and arms of silver (Medes-Persians), the 3rd was a belly and thighs of brass (Greece), and the 4th was legs of iron and feet and toes of iron and clay (Rome).

    Having established that, there was stone cut without hands that shattered this image so completely that the obliterated pieces that broke off became like the chaff of a threshingfloor which the wind drives away. No place was found for these broken pieces. They were gone, never to return again. That stone became a great mountain that filled the whole earth.

    The stone cut without hands, to me, represents Jesus Christ. He was not made with human hands. The God of heaven came as Jesus Christ and set up a kingdom that surpasses and consumed all the kingdoms of flesh. God, in Jesus Christ, established a kingdom that lasts forever. The kingdom of God is the Holy Spirit residing in His people accomplishing this plan of filling the earth with His knowledge and glory.

    Since I believe this is true, it is no surprise to me that the kingdom of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome do not stand or exist today. The wind of the Spirit is driving even their remnant away as time goes by and the kingdom of God (the mountain) is growing and growing and nothing in heaven or earth can stop its progress. It shall never be destroyed.

    This all leads me to believe that most, if not all, of Daniel has been fulfilled.

    Every prophecy after chapter two, has to do in one way or another to this first vision of the great image of 4 parts (kingdoms).
     
  4. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    We are in agreement on the 4 kingdoms. The problem arises when one believes that all of Dan. 7 has been fulfilled, and remains a futurist. I don't understand.
    If you believe that all of Daniel 7 has been fullfilled, then I fail to see how you can also believe Revelation is a future event.
    Rev.13 is in direct correlation to Dan.7.
    How can Dan.7 be fullfilled in the past while Rev. 13 is a future event? I am not preterist & cannot understand how people arrive at this conclusion. Maybe someone can help me.
     
  5. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    Hello, this is placesofrefuge, a.k.a. Cynthia Diane and Lee! On two of our websites, the page below is there, among many others! www.homestead.com/PROPHECYCENTER/prophecycenter.html and www.geocities.com/leecin82007/PROPHECY_CENTER.html
    you will even find LAST DAYS FICTION STORY included, and glimpses into Daniel 7 there, too!

    DANIEL 7 (RE:Endtime Prophecy) page 25 (12/01)
    v.1 Daniel is going to relay his vision
    v.2 The four winds of heaven strove upon the great sea, by night
    v.3 Four great beasts came up from the sea (sea= Gentile lands?)
    v.4 lion, with eagles’s wings (USA?); wings plucked, stands upon feet as a man, and a man’s heart given to it (The Antichrist?)
    v.5 second beast, like a bear (Russia?); it raised itself on one side (weapons?) and it had three ribs in it’s mouth and teeth (artillery provided by itself and the two others?) and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh (Ezekiel 38 & 39?)
    v.6 Another, like a leopard (Europe?) which had on the back of it four wings of a fowl: (looks like the fourth big power to come to some, but not it?) the beast also had four heads; and dominion was given to it (The E.U., Euro currency, etc.? January 1, 2002, the Euro is taking over all European countries’ currency, and individual currency will no longer be valid, setting a dangerous precedent for all other nations and countries! The follow-up plan for the American dollar is to merge with Canadian money and pesos, South American currency, as well as do away with borders. Of course, the exchange of currency and checks will be entirely done away with anyway, under the reign of the Antichrist, when even your silver will be worthless and gold stolen by those in control.)
    v.7 the fourth beast, dreadful and strong, terrible, with great iron teeth, it devoured and brake into pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:and it was diverse from all of the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns (kings). (The United Nations, even in Millennium Summit 2000 is taking away sovereignty of the three previous beasts and giving this massive power to itself, the United Nations, now. Notice in Revelation 13:1 it arises alone as great power, although I do believe the United States of America will remain the great whore of Babylon for awhile, so has a little longer staying power, and notice where the first three beasts are in Rev. 13:1-2)
    v.8 little horn (or king- the Antichrist?) before whom were the three horns (kings of the first three beasts?) plucked up by the roots. In this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth (Rev. 13:2, Babylon, the USA, first beast?) speaking great things
    v.9 Jesus shows up right in this verse, before Revelation 13:1-2 and after, kicks in! The Rapture?!
    v.10 All of the Raptured thousands who later return with Jesus (Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev. 7:9-17, Rev. 14:1-5 and 13-14, Rev. 19:4) are with Jesus now, and the judgment of the righteous takes place
    v.11 The little horn (Antichrist?) will now speak great words, until he is cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20, with the false prophet, who is probably the pope, and the devil)
    v.12 The first three beasts no longer have any power or dominion, but their lives are prolonged for a time.
    v.13 Another coming of Jesus, with the clouds of heaven (Raptured saints, perhaps the angels, and others, Rev. 6:13-14, also continues v.10 and 11 of Daniel 7, above?)
    v.14 Jesus now given complete dominion over all the earth and people, to be served and worshipped.
    v.15 Daniel troubled by these visions
    v.16 Daniel asks for interpretation. (The rest of the verses are this?)
    v.17 Interpretation- the four beasts equal four kings, arising out of the earth
    v.18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom (where Jesus will rule for the next 1000 years (Rev. 20:3, etc.) and forever?) and possess the kingdom forever, even for ever and ever
    v.19 Refers back to v. 7, Daniel knows all about the fourth beast, diverse from all the others, and describes it’s dreadfulness in detail again!
    v.20 More about the 10 heads, the 3 wounded ones and the (Antichrist?) one of the fallen ones again has that mouth (v.4, v.8, Rev. 13:2) and whose look was more stout than his fellows. (probably because this beast is also the whore of Babylon?)
    v.21 Unfortunately, the saints left behind lose the war, don’t prevail (Rev. 13:6, the Antichrist curses both God and the Raptured saints, next verse, he is able to overcome the saints still on earth. Also, the pre-Raptured saints were told to occupy until He comes, but these saints, the Bible clarifies, will no longer be able to work, and they certainly are not marrying or giving in marriage, but are overcome.)
    v.22 Until Jesus comes again, then comes the judgment of this group of saints, and they possess the kingdom
    v.23 The fourth beast described again, for the third time
    v.24 the 10 kings and the three subdued ones and the Antichrist described again
    v.25 The Antichrist will blaspheme God for 3 and ½ years! And he shall prevail over the saints, changing times and laws for 3 and ½ years
    v.26 In time, God gets him
    v.27 We win
    v.28 Daniel’s thoughts
    ……..WRITTEN BY CYNTHIA DIANE
     
  6. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hi Debbie,
    This is what I recon :) I will need to skip across a lot of other prophecies briefly but I’m shore you can stay with me on this.
    We have the statue of nebbie that Jben speaks of.

    There is a stage of major change in the forth kingdom and thats were it merged from the iron roman legs to the 10 toes that were mingled with the iron and clay and wouldn’t hold together.
    These changes were past but there is still more to come in the future.
    Let me explain abit about the 10 horns (toes) and the little horn that came out diverse than the rest and consumed 3 of those kingdoms.

    I believe this is the stage of prophesy that we are still in and have been in since the fall of rome and it won`t change until jesus removes it when he comes.
    In about 300 to 500 ad there were 10 Germanic tribes that migrate into Europe and eventually they all had a part in the fall of Rome over a couple of hundred yrs.

    This is what paul meant in 2 thes ch 2 by saying to them that jesus wouldn’t return in there time because first there had to be a great falling away (of the Roman empire) and then the man of sin must reign till jesus returns and removes him with the power of his coming.

    So, what is the little horn that comes out from among these 10 Germanic tribes around 500 ad and proceeds to consume 3 of those tribes and change times and dates and make war against the saints of the most high.

    It is the roman Vatican.

    In rev ch 17 it talks of mystery Babylon and in verse 9 it says that she sits on 7 hills.

    There is only one great city on 7 hills.

    ROME and today THE VATICAN.

    So the ten horns and the little horn are the 10 Germanic tribes which are now only 7 as 3 were Arian and therefore wiped out as off the time of the holy Roman emperor Leo 1, who started a 300 yr persucution were 3 Germanic Arian tribes were wiped out for believing something different to rome.

    There were long periods in the middle ages were you couldn’t by or sell unless you bore the mark of the beast. If you wern`t christened catholic or if you didn`t believe in the vatican you had your belongings taken and your land taken and many were also tortured into recanting on there beliefs and forced to confess Catholicism. This went on for 1000 yrs at least.

    People say that the mark of the beast will be a bar code on our head or arm but a few verses later it also says that the sons of god will have a mark on our foreheads??? Will god bar code us too or is it referring to being marked by baptism. I’d say it is a spiritual mark of baptism that john and Jesus said everyone that was saved must do. It is a spiritual mark.

    So now we have 7 European tribes (Germanic) and the little horn, which is the Vatican.

    These 7 tribes have spread to America, Aust. NZ, Canada and other parts of the world and rule it to this day and there is a day before the return of Jesus when they will bring great tribulations on the earth.

    Debbie, I have a thread on this subject called "the 10 Germanic tribes and the vatican reign."

    If it interests you, I go into the history and names of tribes and how Rome fell and how the pope has rules among the 10 horns or toes of Daniels and johns visions.

    Most of it has been fulfilled but the big parts of rev 17 and 18 are most likely around the corner with the new pope.

    It may be a few pages back by now.

    This is what I believe Daniel and revelations talks about all through it. As Jben said, it is all predicted around the kingdoms and empires of the world and the order in which they precede each other.
    It would make more since to me, this futuristic stuff, if people had the beliefs in other parts of the bible but I still can’t see were the bible mentions a 7 yr trib without using Dan 9 (one single lonely scripture used to make huge futuristic doctrines??)

    I need to see the bible say the same thing over and over before I can see were the belief fits and I tell you, a lot of the futuristic stuff coming out of Christianity over the last 40 yrs is not only totally new interpretations for these scriptures according to history but also they were never interpreted this way by church fathers, that I know off or anyone prior to 1950 from what I can tell so why put such faith in someone else’s interpretations of things from the 20th century because we have 2500 yrs of ancient hebrew manuscripts and I don’t recall any of them talking about a 7 yr tribulation with antichrist.

    Futuristic bible interpretations of modern man are fantasy at best and down right blasphemy at worst.

    It confuses me that those that are well trained in history get the greatest persecution by Christians. I think it is because they are the biggest threat to people’s beliefs because there knowledge has given them insight and understanding when they read the scriptures and this is a great threat to those that are unlearned and believe what ever is coming out of the churches.


    celtic
     
  7. sarkazma

    sarkazma New Member

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    isnt the great falling away currently hapening?.... like, the churches allowing homosexual priests, corrupt priests.. things like this?
     
  8. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    :angel: There is another post with the specific question about who knows what "THE GREAT FALLING AWAY" is, and for the last post here, it's got a great answer if you look at it! I get the impression it might be a major, definite event, rather than slipping into the things you just mentioned in your last post here! Just a thought. These things, however, are certainly the spirit of antichrist, which are definite precedents to THE Antichrist! :confused: :sorry: ---placesofrefuge
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello jben,
    Sorry, but here we go again. I would agree that the stone cut without hands does represent Jesus, but that is about as far as I can go in agreement. The Kingdom of God has NOT come yet. Jesus did not come and consume all kingdoms of flesh. He (Messiah) was cut off (denied) of receiving His Kingdom. Remember, after the 69 weeks?? Not 70, but 69. When have all the kingdoms of this world been consumed?? Jesus has not returned yet. We are still in our flesh and have not received our rewards yet either. When the Kingdom of God comes, all nations will beat their swords into plow shares, and their will be no more war until the thousand years are over, and then God will release Satan, who in turn will stir up Gog and Magog to come against the Kingdom of God, but they will be consumed by fire. And also, the Kingdom of God is not the Holy spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person. He is a member of the trinity (The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). Some of Daniel has been fulfilled, but there is still some ways to go yet. The best is yet to come, just like the wine that Jesus made.
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Sorry jben,
    I did put a lot in here. You can refute one line at a time if you like.

    Oh - and I read your other post on the other thread. Are you sure you won't participate any longer?? If you don't answer that question, then I will assume that you have chosen to dis-qualify yourself. Or was there something about the rules you didn't like??
    We can modify them some more if you have a better idea about something. I'm open to that. But, if you don't answer, and then later decide to change your mind - I will not answer. I am waiting on celtic to respond now, so you still have time. See ya.
     
  11. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello jben,
    Once again there is too much to tackle. But, I will attempt some of it. My time is very limited.

    I would agree with you that (at hand) does mean near. The Kingdom of God was very near. But you can't forget that Messiah was cut off. That is key. There is also a big difference between the Kingdom of God, and the Age of Grace (gospel).

    I have received Christ. It is He that is in me, not His Kingdom. The Messiah is still to come brother, the Great King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I am part of His Kingdom, but Messiah is still to come, and when He does, I will come with Him. Yes, He casted out devils, but He never consumed a nation. I will try to tackle more tommorow.

    I noticed that you must have posted this when I was fellowshipping, and worshipping with my local body of believers. Do you attend a local body?? I don't mean to pry. You don't have to answer if you don't wish. See you friend.
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I believe that when Jesus referred to the Kingdom of God in that verse, he meant Heaven, which is spiritual, and no flesh can enter. This spirit he brought to earth for men to receive. In the garden when Satan tricked Eve into getting Adam to disobey God, Adam lost his relationship with God. Satan took the authority that God gave to Adam. Adam was left with a curse, and the whole human race was cursed, and lost in sin. So God sent His Son into the world, and all that believed in, and received Him were given the right to be sons of God.

    He gave us back our spiritual relationship, but our bodies are still dying, and they must be changed. One day soon, at the appointed time, all believers from every age, present and past will be called up to meet the Lord in the air, and we will be given incorruptible bodies that will never die. We will be like Jesus.

    Then, at the end of the tribulation, the Kingdom of God will come physically and spiritually to the earth from heaven. I'm sorry I don't explain things very well. This should prove that I wasn't meant to be a teacher.LOL. But we have some good teachers coming to the forum now.

    Your post is way too long jben. I don't even want to go back to the next part. It's time for bed. See ya.
     
  14. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Someone posted that Persia & Greece doesn't stand up or exist today; but I read elsewhere that some believe Persia to be present day Iraq/Iran and Greece to be the western civilization of the United States. Does anyone agree with that?
     
  15. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Persia was part of one of the 4 kingdoms mentioned in Daniel. In the mid 1900's, Persia changed it's name to Iran. In Biblical days, Babylon was located in Persia. At that time Persia was a land in the center of where Iran, Iraq, & Russia borders now meet. Therefore, today, Persia could be either Iran, Iraq, or Russia.
    Iraquian leader Suddam Hussein has reportedly spent billions of dollars on rebuilding Babylon on it's original location, currently Iraq, formerly called Persia in biblical days. It is made of much gold today & is Hussein's pride & joy, but unfinished at this point. Nevertheless, physical Babylon exists today in fine form.
    Celtic crusader, thankyou for your explanation. I would like to clear up your mistaken view of a futurist. A futurist is one who is still awaiting the 2nd coming of Christ. Therefore you are also a futurist.
    Scripture does NOT say the 7 hills. We know Rome is built on 7 HILLS, not mountains. Scripture says 7 MOUNTAINS & Rev.17:9 & 10 indicates each of those mountains has a king. Rome was not built on 7 mountains , each mountain having it's own king.
    Where is evidence that the mark of the beast was in anyone's hand or forehead in history past? We don't know what type of mark Jesus is putting on Christians, but He is going to do it, & it could be spiritual, but the mark of the beast must be physical in order for anyone to buy or sell. Where is your evidence of a past mark? Are you saying that all Catholics are marked by the beast now & will be slaughtered at the 2nd coming?
    I see a gap in that theory. You claim Rev 17 & 18 have not been fullfilled. Then 19 tells of the 2nd coming with verse 20 saying that those that recieved the mark of the beast were cast into the lake of fire with the beast & false prophet. So I can't follow with the previous mark of the beast happening in the past.
     
  16. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

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    Debbie,

    I think the whole identification of the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 needs to be rethought. I do not believe they represent Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome at all, and heres why:

    Verses 9-11 and also 13-14 Depict the judgment of God and the events surrounding the Second coming. Verse 12 however states, "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time" In other words, the beasts of Daniel 7 lost their power BUT they continued to live. From this we can draw a logical conclusion: The 4 beasts MUST exist at the time of the second coming.

    If you follow this much, then it cannot be speaking of ancient Babylon, ancient Medo-Persia, ancient Greece and ancient Rome since those empires died and crumbled long ago. Modern Iraq or modern Iran have nothing at all to do with the ancient empires that once inhabited that land.

    Not that I agree with celtic crusader, but trying to point out a difference between hills and mountains is nitpicking. From what i've read, Greek only has one word for both hill and mountain. After all, who decides where a hill ends and a mountain begins? The Mount of Olives in Israel is called a mountain but it is extremely low. There really is no difference in scripture between a hill and a mountain.

    Rev 17:18 says the woman is a GREAT CITY which sits on 7 mountains (verse 9) It also doesnt say the mountains each have a king, it merely says the 7 heads represent 7 kings as well as mountains. There is only one city in the world which can be said to #1 be a great city, #2 reign over kings of the earth and #3 sit on 7 mountains (hills). The other details in Rev 17 confirm the identity of this woman.

    As for the rest, I certainly agree that the mark hasnt yet come, although we're probably seeing it in the making right now with companies such as Digital Angel making computer chips to be implanted in humans.
     
  17. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    I will get to Dan 7 shortly, but as to Rev & rome... How can ROme be a political force ruling over kings?
     
  18. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    The harlot is not Rome. Why take everything else spiritually & take the city on 7 mountains/hills literally?
    REad REv 17:16 the whore "shall be made desolate & naked, and shall eat her flesh & burn her with fire"
    Now read Ez. 16:34-44- the harlot here is srtipped naked, eaten & burnt. This is Jerusalem.
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Rjano 21, I was answering a question about Persia.
    So you don't believe that Dan. 7 has anything to do with Dan. 8 is that correct? OK. Debating on the fact that Dan. 8 has been fullfilled & Dan. 7 has not.
    Can you explain Dan. 7 verse 23's 4th kingdom being separate from the 3 other kingdoms, yet still the 4th kingdom has 10 horns.
    How about the 4th kingdom is the EU, king of spain is the one(11th nation to join) who arises after the 10 horns, that leaves the other 3 kingdoms to be nations not in the EU.
    ok?
     
  20. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    Go to Yahoo and do a search with this wording, "ten horns daniel 7 historicist." Interesting reading will follow.
     
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