Has anyone read Jesus: Fallen?

[isshinwhat]

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/documents/Jesus-Fallen-contents-foreword-preface.pdf

 

[Gxg (G²)]

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/documents/Jesus-Fallen-contents-foreword-preface.pdf

Sounds intensive - considering the nature of the subject in how others wrestle with the concept of Christ having a fallen nature and yet may be aware of what it meant for Christ to be human. Would love to investigate the work more fully if/when I have the chance...and glad that Emanuel Hatzidakis took the time to write it.

 

[isshinwhat]

I would like to read it, too. It was interesting to hear him mention that his primary intended audience was initially "those few Eastern Orthodox theologians who have followed in the footsteps of their Western colleagues, accepting a fallen Christ," as it was in the East where I first heard the notion: granted my Western experience was mainly limited to Catholic theology and not Protestant. Does anyone know when this particular POV came to prominence? He mentions a ruckus caused when Met. Ware mentioned it in a lecture, for instance, though I do not suppose he is solely responsible for promulgating it.

 

[Resha Caner]

What? Which western churches think Jesus was fallen? That's a new one for me.

As a clarifier, I hope you realize the orthodox churches sometimes have a reputation for slicing theological issues paper thin and quibbling over minutiae. As soon as I saw references to different "isms" in the link, I began to wonder if this is an example of such.

 

[InnerPhyre]

As a clarifier, I hope you realize the orthodox churches sometimes have a reputation for slicing theological issues paper thin and quibbling over minutiae. As soon as I saw references to different "isms" in the link, I began to wonder if this is an example of such.

The Byzantine Empire was ground zero for the uprising of the great heresies and the Orthodox Church remembers the destruction, both physical and spiritual that came from them. We don't take the mangling of the faith lightly as a result. It's understandable that the Protestant world would look at us and see us "quibbling over minutiae," but the opposite side of that is the extreme pluralism that you see among Protestant denominations. The old heresies (Nestorianism, Modalism, even Arianism) have made a large come back as a result of Protestants NOT quibbling over "minutiae." Pull a small thread out of the faith and the tapestry unravels. That is why our faith is Catholic....meaning "whole." There is nothing lacking.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The old heresies (Nestorianism, Modalism, even Arianism) have made a large come back as a result of Protestants NOT quibbling over "minutiae."

and Gnosticism, Judiazing, chilliasm....

 

[Resha Caner]

The Byzantine Empire was ground zero for the uprising of the great heresies and the Orthodox Church remembers the destruction, both physical and spiritual that came from them. We don't take the mangling of the faith lightly as a result. It's understandable that the Protestant world would look at us and see us "quibbling over minutiae," but the opposite side of that is the extreme pluralism that you see among Protestant denominations. The old heresies (Nestorianism, Modalism, even Arianism) have made a large come back as a result of Protestants NOT quibbling over "minutiae." Pull a small thread out of the faith and the tapestry unravels. That is why our faith is Catholic....meaning "whole." There is nothing lacking.

I realize my comment was provocative. Still, it was only meant to explain how the Orthodox are viewed from the outside - justified or not. Honestly, I don't see that it needs to be taken as a pejorative. There was a time when I loved the minutiae - I still do in some respects. As long as it doesn't become Pharisaic, I don't really see the harm.

Next, I don't take responsibility for pluralism. I detest it just as much as you do.

Finally, I would still like my question answered. What western churches have a theology of a fallen Jesus? The reason for my comment on minutiae is that I wonder if it is something actually proclaimed by western churches or if it is a polemic charge used against western churches.

 

[truefiction1]

I realize my comment was provocative. Still, it was only meant to explain how the Orthodox are viewed from the outside - justified or not. Honestly, I don't see that it needs to be taken as a pejorative. There was a time when I loved the minutiae - I still do in some respects. As long as it doesn't become Pharisaic, I don't really see the harm.

Next, I don't take responsibility for pluralism. I detest it just as much as you do.

Finally, I would still like my question answered. What western churches have a theology of a fallen Jesus? The reason for my comment on minutiae is that I wonder if it is something actually proclaimed by western churches or if it is a polemic charge used against western churches.

Surely you're not suggesting that we Orthodox are the type to "strain out a gnat, only to swallow a camel"?

I don't know of any Catholic or more traditional Protestant Churches that teach a fallen Jesus. But there may be a few teachings and beliefs of this sort within the various Christian sects after the Reformation.

 

[Resha Caner]

I don't know of any Catholic or more traditional Protestant Churches that teach a fallen Jesus. But there may be a few teachings and beliefs of this sort within the various Christian sects after the Reformation.

OK. I don't know of any that would teach such a doctrine either, so I was just curious. What is Hatzidakis talking about, then?

Surely you're not suggesting that we Orthodox are the type to "strain out a gnat, only to swallow a camel"?

Wouldn't it be against the rules of the forum for me to suggest such a thing? But seriously, no, that's not where I was going.

 

[truefiction1]

OK. I don't know of any that would teach such a doctrine either, so I was just curious. What is Hatzidakis talking about, then?

I think he was referring to particular theological scholars (of Western Christian influence and background) who were writing things about Christ that he thinks are erroneous.

 

[Resha Caner]

I think he was referring to particular theological scholars (of Western Christian influence and background) who were writing things about Christ that he thinks are erroneous.

Uh, OK. I guess I would have to read the paper in more depth. I thought maybe someone knew more specifics.

I guess I just don't like the implications behind the phrase "Western Christian influence". If by "western" one means Greek influence in various Platonist, Aristotelian, or Thomistic forms, then, yes, I would agree that is the wrong direction to go. But ... nuts, I tried phrasing the second half of this sentence several different ways, but I think this forum just isn't the place for me to comment. Suffice to say I expect we disagree on a few things.

 

[truefiction1]

Uh, OK. I guess I would have to read the paper in more depth. I thought maybe someone knew more specifics.

I guess I just don't like the implications behind the phrase "Western Christian influence". If by "western" one means Greek influence in various Platonist, Aristotelian, or Thomistic forms, then, yes, I would agree that is the wrong direction to go. But ... nuts, I tried phrasing the second half of this sentence several different ways, but I think this forum just isn't the place for me to comment. Suffice to say I expect we disagree on a few things.

We're a pretty diverse thinking group who disagrees on a few things amongst ourselves. By "western" is usually meant Roman Catholicism and the various reformation Churches, in contrast with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches.

 

[truefiction1]

We're a pretty diverse thinking group who disagrees on a few things amongst ourselves.

For instance, I recall an instance where several Orthodox became deadlocked after a three week long debate over who would ultimately emerge victorious in a fair fight: T-Rex or Tricerotops.

 

[truefiction1]

Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

This we strongly agree upon.

 

[Kyprian]

For instance, I recall an instance where several Orthodox became deadlocked after a three week long debate over who would ultimately emerge victorious in a fair fight: T-Rex or Tricerotops.

Exactly. Seen some pretty intense debates in my time. By the way, the T-Rex doesn't stand a chance. Just sayin'...

 

[ArmyMatt]

By the way, the T-Rex doesn't stand a chance. Just sayin'...

pfffft, whatever.....

 

[truefiction1]

Exactly. Seen some pretty intense debates in my time. By the way, the T-Rex doesn't stand a chance. Just sayin'...

Ah man... we're not gonna go here again are we?!!!