Happy Thanksgiving -- The Pilgrims Were CALVINISTS

[cygnusx1]

One needs to assess why these men were Calvinists ......... I remember a few years ago finding out that before they set sail for America (from England) they had tried to live and worship in Holland , hence the Calvinist influence was two way .

The books that they brought with them to the States were Calvinistic (as well as books on other none religious matter)

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

I said the Pilgrims were Calvinists.

And I said not all of the Pilgrims were Calvinists, only the ones you referenced were.

The fact that various religious groups were among the pilgrims coming to the 'new world' is a pretty well established and accepted fact. I've never heard anyone attempt to claim they all the Pilgrims held to a Calvinistic soteriology. That is a pretty absurd and unfounded claim.

 

[nobdysfool]

And I said not all of the Pilgrims were Calvinists, only the ones you referenced were.

The fact that various religious groups were among the pilgrims coming to the 'new world' is a pretty well established and accepted fact. I've never heard anyone attempt to claim they all the Pilgrims held to a Calvinistic soteriology. That is a pretty absurd and unfounded claim.

Documentation, please.

 

[cygnusx1]

so , the Calvinists fled England , visited Holland to live amongst fellow Calvinists and then regrouped and set sail for America , did these Calvinists come with Arminians across the seas to the USA even though they worked on the Synod of Dort ?

here's an excellent page with a great time scale ;

The Dutch Connection of the Pilgrim Fathers (No. 264)

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

From the link provided by Cyg:

"Pilgrim Fathers, in American colonial history, settlers of Plymouth, Mass., the first permanent colony in New England (1620). Of the 102 colonists, 35 were members of the English Separatist Church (radical faction of Puritanism) who had earlier fled to Leiden the Netherlands, to escape persecution at home. Seeking a more abundant life along with religious freedom, the Separatists negotiated with a London Stock company to finance a pilgrimage to America. Approximately two-thirds of those making the trip aboard the Mayflower were non-Separatists, hired to protect the company's interests; these included John Alden and Myles Standish.
These first settlers, initially referred to as the Old Comers and later as the Forefathers, did not become known as the Pilgrim Fathers until two centuries after their arrival.

Here is another article as well which speaks of the General Baptist pilgrims...

 

[heymikey80]

Documentation, please.

Slips the knot. The first separatist Pilgrims were Calvinists, but they were accompanied by employees of the chartered company that came to establish the colony -- 2/3 non-separatist, and probably nominally members of other churches across the range of churches in England and the Netherlands.

As for Baptists, there's no information about Baptist churches in New England until decades later, under Roger Williams' Rhode Island colony.

 

[nobdysfool]

All we were asking for was proof of the contention, rather than just general anti-Calvinist rhetoric, which is what is usually presented....

 

[cygnusx1]

PILGRIM AND PURITAN : A DELICATE DISTINCTION
by Richard Howland Maxwell


It is a fascinating study for me , not least because Robert Browne the father of the English "separatists" is buried in my town Northampton , I saw his monument/Grave stone a few Months ago and thought , 'mmmmm , must remember to look up that guys history ' , I think he died in prison . The punishments for separating from the Anglican Church back then were aweful , it usually involved having ears cut off. It appears some separatists were part of the Pilgrims

what i cannot find is an inventory of books on the Mayflower ship. I know they had the Geneva Bible and I have heard the works of William Perkins (England's John Calvin)

 

[AndOne]

The book "Mayflower" by Nathaniel Philbrick (who is a secular writer) documents in detail the story of the initial Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower. There were no baptists who came over initially... Those Puritans who came over on the Mayflower did so to escape religous persecution and to set up a colony founded on Biblical principals.

 

[Hismessenger]

A blessed thanksgiving to all.

hismessenger

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

The first separatist Pilgrims were Calvinists, but they were accompanied by employees of the chartered company that came to establish the colony -- 2/3 non-separatist, and probably nominally members of other churches across the range of churches in England and the Netherlands.

Yes, I agree. Thank you.

As for Baptists, there's no information about Baptist churches in New England until decades later, under Roger Williams' Rhode Island colony.

While the first official "Baptist" congregation wasn't documented until the Rhode Island fellowship, most historians teach the influence of those with 'Baptist' doctrine was much earlier, which was the point I was making regarding the 'Pilgrims' being of various backgrounds and beliefs.

The origins of the Baptists are most commonly traced to John Smyth and the Separatists. In 1609, John Smyth, led a group of separatists to the Netherlands to start the General Baptist Church with an Arminian theology. In 1616, Henry Jacob led a group of Puritans in England with a Calvinist theology to form a congregational church that would eventually become the Particular Baptists in 1638 under John Spilsbury.

Both groups had members who sailed to America as pilgrims to avoid religious persecution in England and Europe and who started Baptist churches in the early colonies.​

 

[drstevej]

From the link provided by Cyg:

"Pilgrim Fathers, in American colonial history, settlers of Plymouth, Mass., the first permanent colony in New England (1620). Of the 102 colonists, 35 were members of the English Separatist Church (radical faction of Puritanism) who had earlier fled to Leiden the Netherlands, to escape persecution at home. Seeking a more abundant life along with religious freedom, the Separatists negotiated with a London Stock company to finance a pilgrimage to America. Approximately two-thirds of those making the trip aboard the Mayflower were non-Separatists, hired to protect the company's interests; these included John Alden and Myles Standish.
These first settlers, initially referred to as the Old Comers and later as the Forefathers, did not become known as the Pilgrim Fathers until two centuries after their arrival.

Here is another article as well which speaks of the General Baptist pilgrims...

There is a difference between separatists and baptists. John Robinson was a separatist. Ie he separated from the Church of England. It is the equivalent of independent. However, separatists were largely pedo-baptists. John Smyth rocked the separatist community in 1609 when he rejected pedobaptism and naptised himself and then his congregation (when in exile in Amsterdam).

So to say separatists were general baptists is errant. Smyth was, Helwys was and Murton was. The first baptist church on English soil was that of Helwys in 1612 and he died in prison as a separatist.

 

[AndOne]

Both groups had members who sailed to America as pilgrims to avoid religious persecution in England and Europe and who started Baptist churches in the early colonies.

Yes - but when we celebrate Thanksgiving it is to celebrate the first pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower - who were Calvinists!

which is what this thread is about!!!

 

[drstevej]

From the link provided by Cyg:

"Pilgrim Fathers, in American colonial history, settlers of Plymouth, Mass., the first permanent colony in New England (1620). Of the 102 colonists, 35 were members of the English Separatist Church (radical faction of Puritanism) who had earlier fled to Leiden the Netherlands, to escape persecution at home. Seeking a more abundant life along with religious freedom, the Separatists negotiated with a London Stock company to finance a pilgrimage to America. Approximately two-thirds of those making the trip aboard the Mayflower were non-Separatists, hired to protect the company's interests; these included John Alden and Myles Standish.
These first settlers, initially referred to as the Old Comers and later as the Forefathers, did not become known as the Pilgrim Fathers until two centuries after their arrival.

Here is another article as well which speaks of the General Baptist pilgrims...

Reread your article. It says they became general baptists AFTER they came here. Are you saying this change occurred between landing and the first Thanksgiving?

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Yes - but when we celebrate Thanksgiving it is to celebrate the first pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower - who were Calvinists!

As Mikey explained and I documented, not everyone of the pilgrims on the Mayflower were Calvinists. And while the leaders in the community at Plymouth, where much of the first stories related to Thanksgiving began, had Calvinistic roots the development of this tradition is much more complex and spread over a period of time. Plus, their theological views had little if anything to do with the Thanksgiving celebration. It would be like an Arminian pointing to some historical event related to a tradition of Christmas being initiated by non-Calvinists and then suggesting that somehow strengthens the claims of our theological views. They are totally unrelated.

 

[BentBiscuit]

Well we don't have a "Thanksgiving" in Australia because our first settlers were a collection of murderers and thieves, but we're happy about how it all turned out

 

[Rhamiel]

Well we don't have a "Thanksgiving" in Australia because our first settlers were a collection of murderers and thieves, but we're happy about how it all turned out

do you know how many of them were calvinists?

 

[BentBiscuit]

do you know how many of them were calvinists?

Not sure. I think the innocent ones were so maybe about 20%. I'm fairly sure the bulk of the guilty ones were Anglican.

I'm stopping this now because I'm getting silly

 

[Rick Otto]

Well we don't have a "Thanksgiving" in Australia because our first settlers were a collection of murderers and thieves, but we're happy about how it all turned out

I called Australian Customs & Immigration Authority to see if my passport was all I would need to enter Australia. They asked me,"Do you have a criminal record?" I said, "I didn't think it was still required."

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

John Robinson was the teaching pastor of the congregation we call the Pilgrims. He never made it to the New World but the congregation still viewed him as their pastor until his death in 1625.

He was a capable defender of the doctrines of grace.

As you celebrate Thanksgiving and discuss the Pilgrims... remember -- they were Calvinists.

For citations see: "The Soteriology of John Robinson, Pilgrim Pastor and Advocate of the Reformed Faith." Stephen M. Johnson, Westminster Theological Journal [Spring 1982].

yes, and Squanto was a Catholic.