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Discussion in 'Friendship Court' started by usadingo, Apr 22, 2003.

  1. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    161
    +0
    Christian
    Quick question for you so called "Mormons" out there...

    Aren't you taught that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus?

    Just curious...heard this earlier in a chat room and wanted to hear more about what you "Mormons" are taught regarding the birth of Jesus.
     
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  2. jodrey

    jodrey Member

    430
    +0
    ...

    Despite your rude nature, I'll answer your question.

    No.
     
  3. wildernesse

    wildernesse Use less and live more.

    +5
    Slimmjimm,

    Do you consider saying that Mormons are also known as devil worshippers a flame? I think that I would.

    jodrey:

    Are you Mormon? I'm guessing yes (amazing powers of deduction).

    Anyway, if yes: Could you explain somewhat about why the church "collects" family history? I think I heard somewhere that it's to baptize ancestors into the church? To me, this sounds incredible and I would like to know why if this is the case.

    Thanks.
    --tibac
     
  4. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,013
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Democrat
    wildernesse : I fully agree that Slimm Jimm is flaming, despite having a valid question.
    On Mormons baptizing deceased relatives, yes they do. In fact, the Mormon Church claims to have retroactively baptized all US Presidents, except two which they found to be unworthy. That way past US Presidents can get into the Mormon heaven.
     
  5. D. Scarlatti

    D. Scarlatti Well-Known Member

    +82
    Atheist
    Slimmjimm said
    ... for you so called "Mormons" out there...

    ... wanted to hear more about what you "Mormons" are taught regarding the birth of Jesus.


    Now there's the Christian spirit for you!
    Love, tolerance, and respect.
     
  6. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Really? That’s not what I understand of Mormon doctrine:

    Brigham Young states, "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

    And then...

    Brigham Young also said, "Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51).

    And then…

    Brigham Young asserts, "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, page 218, 1857.)

    Followed by...

    Bruce McConkie continues saying, "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, page 547.)

    Which is followed by...

    Heber C. Kimball (who was a member of the first presidency) said, "In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211)

    Now maybe it’s just me, but I think Mormon doctrine is pretty clear on what they think of the “virgin” Mary. God supposedly got a little frisky with her. ;)
     
  7. wildernesse

    wildernesse Use less and live more.

    +5
    Which two and why?!

    --tibac
     
  8. Annabel Lee

    Annabel Lee Beware the Thought Police

    +1,102
    Christian
    US-Others
    What the hell do you think you are doing? How dare you come in here and insult the Mormon members of this board.
    Go get a life.
     
  9. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Never thought I would say this, but...

    Can I get an Amen. :)

    :) :D

     
  10. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Well at least we've kept our cools in here. :)

    And yet we have in the very next sentence...

    Let us fight fire with fire, insult with insult, spite with spite, eh? :)
     
  11. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    I was just thinking, About the attitude of the first post. I wonder if they are into S&M.

    Why you may ask? Because if he is following Jesus and he is following the words of jesus "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Then he is kinda asking to be treated badly isnt he?

    :) ;) :D
     
  12. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,013
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Since Jedi Knight mentioned the Holy Ghost, it is worth mentioning that to a Mormon the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are separate entities.
     
  13. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,013
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Democrat
    wildernesse:
    On the question of which two Presidents were found unworthy for posthumous Mormon baptism, I don't have this information. Maybe one of our Mormon members can supply it.
     
  14. jodrey

    jodrey Member

    430
    +0
    I guess Jedi's information requires a response. It is true that Church leaders have made those statements, but I think it's important to consider what was meant when they said them. Were the statements explicit of God the Father having sexual relations with Mary? No. Since I know some people here are too lazy to click links, I will post the content directly:

    W. John Walsh, Was Mary a Virgin? http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/virgin_mary.htm

    Now, regarding the two US Presidents that were not baptized for, I believe there is a section in the Doctrine & Covenants stating the event in which the Founding Fathers appeared to Joseph Smith and requested that their baptismal work be done. I can't find the section. Maybe it's not in there, but I have heard of this. The reason two of the presidents were not baptized for at that time was that one had allowed persecution on the Saints, deliberately overlooking the extermination order (as in, genocidal death sentence) issued by Gov. Boggs against all Mormons. So I think we could all agree that that was not right. Because of this he was not found to be worthy of baptism at that time. Whether he will be later I don't know. The second president that was not baptized for was still alive at the time, so it would be illogical to do his baptismal work. I can't remember the name of either, unfortunately. Maybe I can find more out later.

    We believe that baptism is a necessary ordinance for salvation, and if it is not fulfilled during a person's lifetime there will be opportunity in the spirit world by being baptized through proxy by someone on earth. We believe that all who have ever died without hearing the gospel will be baptized for. The only explicit mention of baptism for the dead is 1 Corinthians 15: 29, although we believe other such scriptures as Malachi 4: 5-6 refer to the work of baptism for the dead. Indeed, we believe that Elijah has already returned and has done so in order to restore the sealing keys to the earth; those that Jesus conferred to Simon Peter in the New Testament (see Matthew 16: 18-19). Don't argue with this last bit. I'm not trying to prove anything, only to tell what we believe.
     
  15. Annabel Lee

    Annabel Lee Beware the Thought Police

    +1,102
    Christian
    US-Others
    Slimmjimm has one post and he calls an entire church, devil worshippers.
    He's a flamer and an obvious troll.
    He's not worth my time.

    Why did you ignore the trolls post? You had an opportunity to 'correct' him in a 'True Christian' manner.
    Show us how it is done.
     
  16. Jedi

    Jedi Knight

    +137
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I thought you’d bring up material like that, Jodrey. I always try to anticipate what people might say in response to my posts. :)

    What’s interesting is that, given your excerpts, Mormon doctrine would appear to be contradictory then. When Brigham Young states, "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115, underlines mine), he actually states how it is “natural.” Just as we are begotten of our fathers, so it was in the case of Christ. It seems to be very clear in what “natural” processes took place (the same that take place when we’re conceived/begotten). Bruce McConkie continues saying, "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” One must ask himself, “How are mortal men begotten by mortal fathers?” There’s only one answer here: Sexual intercourse. And Mr. McConkie says Christ came about in the same way. The gist of the passages I provided seem to be surprisingly clear in the point they’re getting across.

    Is that so? Then why did you take the time to respond in passionate rebuke? Curious... :)

    I brushed it aside as I didn’t think much of it. I thought it was out of place and unnecessary, but certainly nothing that would justify my slinging mud his way. People don’t always like those who passionately condemn them, and so I try not to jump on people’s backs right off the bat. Only if it becomes a constant stream of behavior will I interject, and since the originator of this topic hasn’t replied yet, the opportunity has not presented itself.
     
  17. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    I think Annabel's response was right on. :)

    Since I think the OP is against the rules, if our friend keeps posting like that, he may not be around here for long.

    :)
     
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