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[Hector Medina]

Greetings all,

As your all know during the 16th century king Henry VIII broke the church ties to Rome because Pope Clement(?) didn't want to annul his Marriage to Catherine of Aragon ,thus Protestantism in The British isles was born.

The Pope did not want to rick losing Spain because king of Spain (I can't remember who) threatened to break if he annuled Henery/s marriage. So he didn't and Rome lost England.

What if:

The Pope did annul Henery's marriage to Catherine and Spain and the spanish king orderd to broke from rome,could it really happen >and last< ???

Conserding how similar the Spanish are to the Italians.........

Maybe the king would have beed overthrown or assaniated.....

For exapmle:

Never in France did the Huegenots(mispelled?) gain major representaion.
They were crusehd by the religious wars in France and persecuted over and over............


I'd like to hear your opinions on this.


Sinc.

Hector

 

[KC Catholic]

There was a lot more to this than what you've posted here. To be sure..King Henry was only part of the problem and it wasn't just because he wanted an annulment and could not get one.

Another significant reason for the "Reformation" ...it was a land grab. Powerful folks in countries where Rome owned land wanted that land for themselves. Additionally, they used the "Reformation" to loot the Catholic Churches in their countries, stealing valueables, church money as well as land.

Read How the Reformation Happened by Hilaire Belloc - great book and opens up the story to a level I never experienced.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 07:31 AM KC Catholic said this in Post #2

There was a lot more to this than what you've posted here. To be sure..King Henry was only part of the problem and it wasn't just because he wanted an annulment and could not get one.

Another significant reason for the "Reformation" ...it was a land grab. Powerful folks in countries where Rome owned land wanted that land for themselves. Additionally, they used the "Reformation" to loot the Catholic Churches in their countries, stealing valueables, church money as well as land.

Read How the Reformation Happened by Hilaire Belloc - great book and opens up the story to a level I never experienced.

I haven't read the book you mention but does it address the issues that Luther, and many others, had with the corruption within the Catholic hiarchy?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Hector Medina]

Reformationist,

I notice you like to talk about the corruption that was going on in Rome.
Yes:
There were cheesy Popes(esp. Clement VII) and monarchs.
There was abuse of power,treachery and deceit.

Being the biggest church in the world a large number of problems will be present.
Indeed, there was,is and of course always WILL BE in every church and religion



God Bless,

Hector

 

[Hector Medina]

KC Catholic,

Right, but in England Henery was the centre of it all.

Yes, I'm sure the English liked the idea of having their own church and their own funding,thats how they grew so big afterwards.
There were supporters of the reformation(some big names I can't remember) before Henery's Act of Supremacy(I think thats the name ) of 1534.

But England had no reason to break away from Rome until 8 ball(Henery) was rolled off by lucky 7(Clement).

What I didn't mention:

When England broke many English didn't agree the break.
In 1549(or 47) Henery died and a powerful man (some Duke whos name I forgot) was the essential ruler of England until Mary I came out of trouble she was in due to incest(or something?) took the throne in 1533
and Catholocism was restored. There were uprisers that were defeated(lead by Sir Thomas Wyat).And many protestents including Henery's archbishop of Cantebury(forgot name) were burnet at the stake, she earned the nick "Bloody Mary".

She ruled England in her own right with much success and Married Philip II(I think) of Spain whom, became essential King of England
if she stood long enough she and Spain may of totally reversed the effects of the Henery's reformation.

Unfortunally she contraced cancer and died in 1538 with her died all she had.


Her sister Elizabeth took the throne and re-established Protestanism(she was illegitimate being Catholic).
Though Philip did try to Marry her several times, Elizabeth probably liked the Idea of England running on its own and to honor her Father.

The English reformation was likely to fail.
I bet one in spain was at least x2 as likely to fail.

I can imagine Clements concern,Spain was bigger then England at the time and he didn't want to risk losing it,after all anythings possible.


God Bless,

Hector

 

[KC Catholic]

Today at 10:36 AM Reformationist said this in Post #3



I haven't read the book you mention but does it address the issues that Luther, and many others, had with the corruption within the Catholic hiarchy?

Thanks,

God bless

Yes.

 

[KC Catholic]

Today at 11:49 AM Hector Medina said this in Post #5

KC Catholic,

Right, but in England Henery was the centre of it all.

Yes, I'm sure the English liked the idea of having their own church and their own funding,thats how they grew so big afterwards.
There were supporters of the reformation(some big names I can't remember) before Henery's Act of Supremacy(I think thats the name ) of 1534.

But England had no reason to break away from Rome until 8 ball(Henery) was rolled off by lucky 7(Clement).

What I didn't mention:

When England broke many English didn't agree the break.
In 1549(or 47) Henery died and a powerful man (some Duke whos name I forgot) was the essential ruler of England until Mary I came out of trouble she was in due to incest(or something?) took the throne in 1533
and Catholocism was restored. There were uprisers that were defeated(lead by Sir Thomas Wyat).And many protestents including Henery's archbishop of Cantebury(forgot name) were burnet at the stake, she earned the nick "Bloody Mary".

She ruled England in her own right with much success and Married Philip II(I think) of Spain whom, became essential King of England
if she stood long enough she and Spain may of totally reversed the effects of the Henery's reformation.

Unfortunally she contraced cancer and died in 1538 with her died all she had.


Her sister Elizabeth took the throne and re-established Protestanism(she was illegitimate being Catholic).
Though Philip did try to Marry her several times, Elizabeth probably liked the Idea of England running on its own and to honor her Father.

The English reformation was likely to fail.
I bet one in spain was at least x2 as likely to fail.

I can imagine Clements concern,Spain was bigger then England at the time and he didn't want to risk losing it,after all anythings possible.


God Bless,

Hector

As I was taught in my college History class...there is never ONE specific reason for an event in history.

Get the book and read it.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 09:27 AM Hector Medina said this in Post #4

Reformationist,

I notice you like to talk about the corruption that was going on in Rome.
Yes:
There were cheesy Popes(esp. Clement VII) and monarchs.
There was abuse of power,treachery and deceit.

Being the biggest church in the world a large number of problems will be present.
Indeed, there was,is and of course always WILL BE in every church and religion



God Bless,

Hector

Hector, look at the way you phrased this:

"Yes:
There were cheesy Popes(esp. Clement VII) and monarchs.
There was abuse of power,treachery and deceit."

This admonition is fine as it can't very well be denied, though I'm not sure "cheesy" is the word I'd use.&nbsp; I was not, for the record, attempting to blame the reformation entirely upon the corruption within the Catholic church.&nbsp; I do, however, think it played a hugely significant role.&nbsp; If this were all you said I would think you were facing the problem that existed head on.&nbsp; However, you go on to clearly try and deemphasize the magnitude of the problems by saying this:

"Being the biggest church in the world a large number of problems will be present.
Indeed, there was,is and of course always WILL BE in every church and religion "

I'm sorry but I fail to see how the size of your church has anything to do with the reformation.&nbsp; People are fallen and fallen, though regenerate,&nbsp;people make up churches.&nbsp; But that is not your church's claim about your Papacy.&nbsp; My point was not to belittle the Catholic faith but rather inquire as to whether the book KC mentioned included the integral variable of corruption, which even went so high as the supreme leader of the Christian faith at that time.

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Hector Medina]

KC Catholic,

I didn't title this thread correctly.

I didn't mean the whole reformation just England.

I am big in history and I do know there are specific books written that are very good and help explain misleadings in textbooks and general encyclopaedias,however some of those little books are not valid sources just as the textbooks and encyclopaedias are.........

For example:

The U.S. Civil War

Books like: What if the South Would of Won?

A war on States Rights (Tariff),NEVER mabye if the war was 20-30 years before

A war on States Rights (Slavery) OBVIOUSLY when you spend hours of reasearch on the topic.

If I'm in the mood I'll look into it.

It would take something really interesting to convince me how England would have broken away from Rome w/o Henry VIII's actions.........



In Christ,

Hector

 

[Lotar]

The main reason for the reformation in England was that Henry 8 was trying to gather as much power to the throne as possible. It was easier for this to take place in England because the majority of the general population felt dissatisfied with the Catholic Church. If this had happened in Spain, the population would probably have revolted, along with any nobles who thought they could claim the throne.
The Pope chose Spain because it was the greater power at the time, and was the Pope's most faithful supporter.

 

[Lotar]

Btw, sorry to argue with you but the main reason for the Civil War was tariffs. Slavery was made an issue after the war had already began, and there were a couple of pro-slavery states on the Union side.
The reason being tariffs would, and did, destroy the economy in the South. Slavery was a big issue, but was on the way out. New technology was making slave labor obsolete.
If the South had won, slavery would have been obolished eventually, in order to maintain good relations with their principle trading partner, England. But they probably would have ended up like South Africa.

 

[Crusader]

The main reason for the reformation in England was that Henry 8 was trying to gather as much power to the throne as possible. It was easier for this to take place in England because the majority of the general population felt dissatisfied with the Catholic Church. If this had happened in Spain, the population would probably have revolted, along with any nobles who thought they could claim the throne.
The Pope chose Spain because it was the greater power at the time, and was the Pope's most faithful supporter.

I agree Lotar, well said mate.

The name Lotar would have to come from the Huns wouldn't it???

 

[Lotar]

The name Lotar would have to come from the Huns wouldn't it???

Actually my name came from a joke. My sister and I were joking about pronouncing abreviations and I did LOTR (Lord of the Rings), and I thought it sounded better as lotar, instead of loter. Later I found out it is an actual name

 

[Crusader]

Ah, I see.
I had a friend name Lotar. he was German, that’s why I thought you might have been a Huns with your Barbarian cross, which I figured comes from the Germanic tribes.

Lord of the rings is the next best thing thou