Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

Ken-1122

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That isn't always an option for people who aren't out, there are many reasons why someone may not call you out on that and you have a responsibility to consider that you might be in the wrong through other cues that aren't as explicit,
Other cues? Like what?
The problem is people bringing up offense can be seen as overreacting, do you not see how this creates a vicious cycle where people bringing up legitimate problems can be dismissed by a society that just prefers the status quo?
True; sometimes people are afraid of being accused of overreacting, but this is a chance they need to take because I am unable to read minds.
I never claimed it was only black people, first off
Go back and read what you wrote, you specifically mentioned black people.
and second off, white people experiencing discrimination versus resentment and such, which isn't the way to solve problems of a white supremacist culture like America making white people complacent and entitled to some degree.
If America was a white supremacist culture, the racist KKK would not be a weak organization, and the racist BLM would not be as powerful as they have become.
Acting like you could never be making judgments about someone based on their appearance in linking them to generalizations or stereotypes about a racial group is naive and ignores how we are flawed and that's something we have to accept in terms of social interactions, it's how we improve
That is your subjective opinion, and you’re wrong. You don’t know me well enough to judge me that way.
You don't get to speak for all black people
Neither do you
Because "all lives matter" implicitly suggests that everyone is equal in terms of how society treats them when it definitively isn't by the experiences of many non whites as regards how people treat them in contrast to white people.
You act as if society acts as one; it does not. There are some places where white people get preferred treatment, other places where they get the short end of the stick; and this goes for all races.
And I never claimed white people don't struggle,
I never said you did!
it's that their struggles are not based on their race,
Sometimes it is
but how they take some attitude that they could never fail because they're white and somehow should be proud of that,
Whites aren’t the only ones who think that way
as if there's a "white" culture in the same vein as "black" culture,
How is it different?
It is your problem in generalizing based on your experiences,
So I generalize based on real world experiences? (LOL)
Whiteness would be those superficial traits we associate to people that are of European descent, particularly the UK, Netherlands, Germany, various places that would fall under that racial group, since those are, as you'd probably agree, distinct from racial groups as ethnicities and nationalities.

Blackness is seen as exotic and treated very often, especially in the early points in American history,
I can’t speak for the type of people you associate with, but the type of people I associate with do not glorify “whiteness” as you describe it.
By your own admission, this is not something that is forced on people, you choose to do that, but you also appear to think people all just conclude the alternative you propose in a false dichotomy between a prisoner to your past or moving forward, as if acknowledging your past is somehow never a good thing.
You still don’t get it do you. The fact that I recognize myself as a product of my past means I acknowledge what my ancestors dealt with.
More false dichotomy, as if my privilege means I'm automatically going to succeed.
No, I’m saying you have no more privilege than I have.
I don't cower to it, because you assume I just accept their arguments at face value, it doesn't work that way. I can acknowledge they have issues without it being my fault for being white when I use my privilege to advocate for black people and minorities in a way that has more legitimacy
Candice Owens said it best when she said;
White liberals cannot stand black conservatives, because we do not see ourselves as oppressed, we do not see ourselves as victims, we see ourselves as their equal; and they can’t stand that.
 
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muichimotsu

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Other cues? Like what?

Like just having some humility to consider you might be wrong in your perspective from whatever lived experience you have that makes you think black people aren't disproportionately affected by systemic issues that are still in need of confronting. Again, privilege and a sense of magnanimity that prefers a status quo instead of any kind of challenge to it
True; sometimes people are afraid of being accused of overreacting, but this is a chance they need to take because I am unable to read minds.

Never said you had to do that, but a sense of empathy is very different from mere sympathy, which is what you're doing, removed from the experiences of those who have to deal with things you apparently haven't

Go back and read what you wrote, you specifically mentioned black people.

Need I point to slavery, Jim Crow laws, the Confederacy's primary reason for persisting in its treason? Black people don't just suddenly became equal or treated with equity merely because the law has changed, much as some people would like to think.
If America was a white supremacist culture, the racist KKK would not be a weak organization, and the racist BLM would not be as powerful as they have become.

Oh, cute, you think white supremacy only manifests in one way and also buy into the idea that BLM is racist without even trying to substantiate how. Enlighten me how an organization that is pointing out that there is a problem in America with how black people are marginalized is remotely being racist?
That is your subjective opinion, and you’re wrong. You don’t know me well enough to judge me that way.

I know enough about people to consider that we aren't perfect and cannot claim it ever, because we necessarily have subjectivity in our nature, we cannot just turn off biases, we recognize them in terms of our brain adjusting through interactions.

Neither do you

Never did, I simply stated that this isn't some isolated statistic you're trying to downplay like most black people are just fine

You act as if society acts as one; it does not. There are some places where white people get preferred treatment, other places where they get the short end of the stick; and this goes for all races.

I didn't claim society was unified in that sense, and I'd seriously doubt you're referring to some place in America where white people are treated disproportionately, versus them simply not being a demographic majority in some areas, which is not the sole factor involved with systemic disparities

I never said you did!
You certainly seem to be acting like I'm pinning all the blame on whites, I'm not, just a majority in terms of our privileged status (not socioeconomically, just making that clear again)

Sometimes it is
And that makes it even somehow? I'm not saying someone cannot be prejudiced against white people, but racism in that sense is an exception to the rule with a society that has white people as the assumed default in their history and still arguably does even if we're shifting

Whites aren’t the only ones who think that way
Some of the issue is just delusions of grandeur, but when a society presents white people as the heroes more often than non whites that can condition your expectations


How is it different?
Whiteness is a generalized racial idea that isn't nearly as stable in its formation as blackness was as a response to preserving that identity in a society that was far more flexible as to what counted as white in a way that isn't nearly so with blackness in history. For so much of time, race was assumed as something that indicated physical differences on a biological level, not merely phenotype, so that's another important factor.

It appears to be difficult for you to challenge yourself in this idea that being white is not free of any kind of baggage and cannot just be severed from the historical context that indicates colonialism and imperialism from white majority cultures thinking they just had a divine right of manifest destiny to conquer every non white in their path "for their own good," ala Christopher Columbus (Italian, but considered white in the same way many Europeans were lumped into being white over time)


So I generalize based on real world experiences? (LOL)

As I said, anecdotal evidence is a start, not the substance overall, which has to take into account other experiences as well, otherwise you're engaging in solipsism


I can’t speak for the type of people you associate with, but the type of people I associate with do not glorify “whiteness” as you describe it.

Glorification perhaps may be a poor expression that has academic specificity I'm not aware of, but the general idea I gather is that whiteness is treated differently, preferentially, by many, but not all, in that sense of being white in the more general way as the acceptable consensus idea, while being black doesn't have those implications necessarily

You still don’t get it do you. The fact that I recognize myself as a product of my past means I acknowledge what my ancestors dealt with.

Yet you seem to think it doesn't really matter in the present at all, as if that historical reality doesn't persist in the minds of some, even if they might be a more extreme example of clinging to the past or engaging in historical denialism about American's racial issues
No, I’m saying you have no more privilege than I have.

Only if you understand privilege in a sense that skews towards your idea that everyone treats everyone else equally regardless of race and there's no subconscious elements or social conditioning to consider even from well meaning people that aren't being malicious. That's moving the goalposts to the point the game doesn't matter anymore

Candice Owens said it best when she said;
White liberals cannot stand black conservatives, because we do not see ourselves as oppressed, we do not see ourselves as victims, we see ourselves as their equal; and they can’t stand that.
Of course you'd reference someone that tries the same downplaying and using the word "equal" as if that's what is being debated at all. Equality is an illusory pursuit in the absolute sense, equity is what is sought, trying to make opportunities the same for everyone who puts in the work rather than just accepting that black people, in the context of the discussion, are not given the same benefits in terms of systemic socioeconomic benefits of accrued generational wealth and positive societal regard for centuries that white people have had and never struggled for at all.

You're also trying to pigeonhole people into a false dichotomy you have of "liberal and conservative"
 
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Ophiolite

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My problem with the claim of unconscious bias is it is used in a way to attack somebody without them having a way to defend themselves. All you have to do is claim they are bias, but it is done at an unconscious level; so you have no way of knowing it. This is more of an attack instrument than an attempt to get honest dialogue moving foreword. This is a way of pointing your finger at someone you know nothing about, without them being able to say you are wrong. Perhaps unconscious bias is a thing for some people, but I don’t accept it for myself. If you want to accuse me, you need to invest the time to get to know me, and THEN we can have a conversation about if I am bias. If you can't do that, I ain't buyin it!
If you lack unconscious bias then you are the only person on the planet who does. Do any of your biases extend to matters of race? I have no idea, but you have declared - as an absolute - that you do not have unconscious bias. That is so patently ridiculous that I am unable to take any of your other views seriously. You seek an honest dialogue. That can only proceed if you acknowledge that even you may be subject to such limitations.
 
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Ken-1122

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Like just having some humility to consider you might be wrong in your perspective from whatever lived experience you have that makes you think black people aren't disproportionately affected by systemic issues that are still in need of confronting. Again, privilege and a sense of magnanimity that prefers a status quo instead of any kind of challenge to it
And why would this prevent someone from talking to me about something I said that they found offensive? After all, they can't determine if humility is an issue with me unless they talk to me right?

Never said you had to do that, but a sense of empathy is very different from mere sympathy, which is what you're doing, removed from the experiences of those who have to deal with things you apparently haven't
What makers you think people I deal with have to deal with things I do not?

Need I point to slavery, Jim Crow laws, the Confederacy's primary reason for persisting in its treason? Black people don't just suddenly became equal or treated with equity merely because the law has changed, much as some people would like to think.
How long before historic slavery and Jim Crow laws are no longer an excuse for failure? Especially when 1st and 2nd generation blacks from the African diaspora are constantly out preforming native blacks even though they deal with the same issues?
Oh, cute, you think white supremacy only manifests in one way and also buy into the idea that BLM is racist without even trying to substantiate how. Enlighten me how an organization that is pointing out that there is a problem in America with how black people are marginalized is remotely being racist?
Anytime you have an organization based on are, no matter how innocent its original intent, will always attract racist of the race. I’m sure you will agree if a group of white people organized a group about white pride, it will attract white racists. Why would it be a surprise that this is the case with groups for black people? Every single person I knew (which are plenty) of BLM (prior to the Floyd incident when white folks got on board) were racist. They might seem normal, but when yo talk to them when white folks aren’t around, the conversation changes and their real views become obvious.

My main problem with Black Lives Matter is they claim to be about black people, but I think they do more harm to black people than the little bit of help they might do from time to time. Take the George Floyd incident for example; Tony Tempa and Timothy Coffman died the same way George Floyd died, they were both on drugs, they were handcuffed and a cop put his knee on either their neck or chest until they died. There was no outrage when these men died, why? They were white. But the minute the exact thing happens to a black man, the entire world erupts and takes notice, and BLM is on the forefront acting as if these things only happens to black men, and everybody reacts to the misinformation they are presented. The way I see it, BLM focuses 99% of their energy on 1% of the problem (police brutality against blacks), and 1% of their effort on 99% of the problem (black on black crime, and a destructive street culture) and they are very successful at doing this. Because of their success, nobody is addressing the 99%, because they are too busy looking at the 1%. In the history of the KKK 3,446 black people were murdered by them; black on black crime surpass that number every 6 months, and nobody notices; it’s as if those black lives don’t matter.
Blacks kill more blacks than the KKK ever did
I know enough about people to consider that we aren't perfect and cannot claim it ever, because we necessarily have subjectivity in our nature, we cannot just turn off biases, we recognize them in terms of our brain adjusting through interactions.
Not good enough. If you want to accuse me of something terrible, you need to first get to know me, and then we can have a conversation about something I might have done or said that was bias, and if I didn’t notice what I did was offensive, I will admit to such a bias. But for you to just proclaim everybody has such biases, No! Take that noise somewhere else bruh!
Never did, I simply stated that this isn't some isolated statistic you're trying to downplay like most black people are just fine
Most black people are just fine; the last thing we need is your self-righteous pity.
I will respond to the rest later
 
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Ken-1122

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If you lack unconscious bias then you are the only person on the planet who does.
Have you interviewed every single person on the planet? When you do, then you can make such an absurd statement
Do any of your biases extend to matters of race? I have no idea,
No! This conversation is strictly about race; not Ice cream flavors.
but you have declared - as an absolute - that you do not have unconscious bias. That is so patently ridiculous that I am unable to take any of your other views seriously.
Prove me wrong.
You seek an honest dialogue. That can only proceed if you acknowledge that even you may be subject to such limitations.
I am giving you honest dialogue, you just don't agree with it.
 
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muichimotsu

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And why would this prevent someone from talking to me about something I said that they found offensive? After all, they can't determine if humility is an issue with me unless they talk to me right?

When you take the position that you cannot be wrong and continue to persist with that attitude of superiority, that doesn't help, it just shows that you want to deflect responsibility onto everyone else instead of admitting you may have an issue, which is still an issue of humility that you refuse to take at all because somehow that would be self hatred or such.


What makers you think people I deal with have to deal with things I do not?

Because they don't have the same experience you do, that's common sense that seems all too uncommon: see the sympathy/empathy distinction I made

How long before historic slavery and Jim Crow laws are no longer an excuse for failure? Especially when 1st and 2nd generation blacks from the African diaspora are constantly out preforming native blacks even though they deal with the same issues?

The problem is the immigrants don't, because they come from a culture where they could accrue generational wealth, it's like you didn't listen at all about the systemic problem that is only starting to get better since the 90s with black families getting generational wealth after centuries of policies designed to marginalize them

When you don't even seem to understand the basic idea of systemic issues and make everything about whether someone is "lazy", you're just reducing the whole discussion to agency instead of admitting there are issues that aren't solved by just working harder, but working smarter

Anytime you have an organization based on are, no matter how innocent its original intent, will always attract racist of the race. I’m sure you will agree if a group of white people organized a group about white pride, it will attract white racists. Why would it be a surprise that this is the case with groups for black people? Every single person I knew (which are plenty) of BLM (prior to the Floyd incident when white folks got on board) were racist. They might seem normal, but when yo talk to them when white folks aren’t around, the conversation changes and their real views become obvious.

Oh yeah, I'm sure you've talked to plenty of BLM supporters in an honest fashion.

Yeah, the problem is white pride is unnecessary because, as I already pointed out, whites were never marginalized in America, they were the norm, they were glorified, they were seen as the base for success in history.

Black pride is not teh same because it isn't based on your skewed idea that they are being arrogant, but are asserting that they will not be marginalized: you not feeling like you're marginalized is not a matter of fact in terms of other people's experiences, that's solipsism yet again

Oh, and what are there "real" beliefs, pray tell?
My main problem with Black Lives Matter is they claim to be about black people, but I think they do more harm to black people than the little bit of help they might do from time to time. Take the George Floyd incident for example; Tony Tempa and Timothy Coffman died the same way George Floyd died, they were both on drugs, they were handcuffed and a cop put his knee on either their neck or chest until they died. There was no outrage when these men died, why? They were white. But the minute the exact thing happens to a black man, the entire world erupts and takes notice, and BLM is on the forefront acting as if these things only happens to black men, and everybody reacts to the misinformation they are presented. The way I see it, BLM focuses 99% of their energy on 1% of the problem (police brutality against blacks), and 1% of their effort on 99% of the problem (black on black crime, and a destructive street culture) and they are very successful at doing this. Because of their success, nobody is addressing the 99%, because they are too busy looking at the 1%. In the history of the KKK 3,446 black people were murdered by them; black on black crime surpass that number every 6 months, and nobody notices; it’s as if those black lives don’t matter.

The problem is not going to be solved by just policing more, that's what you appear to think, that the police are being unfairly generalized because of BLM rather than the idea that not every problem requires a police solution or that police should be trained better, among other suggestions people have brought forward that you dismiss because it's somehow not addressing the problem.

So how do you propose to change the "street culture" that leads to black on black violence? Why do you think this is purely the responsibility of black people to deal with rather than considering that circumstances were not always conducive to this problem and that a white majority culture put in policies they thought would help but failed to consider other factors relative to those policies.

Not good enough. If you want to accuse me of something terrible, you need to first get to know me, and then we can have a conversation about something I might have done or said that was bias, and if I didn’t notice what I did was offensive, I will admit to such a bias. But for you to just proclaim everybody has such biases, No! Take that noise somewhere else bruh!

Bias is not terrible in the basic sense that we all have it, you're exaggerating what I said entirely, as if I'm accusing you of malice rather than mere ignorance that you refuse to acknowledge

Maybe the same could be said to you, not assuming I'm a self hating white person or such.

Again, learn to nuance between bias in the sense that one chooses and bias that can very well be socially conditioned by various factors, I'm not accusing anyone of the former by necessity

Most black people are just fine; the last thing we need is your self-righteous pity.

You don't get to speak for all black people and I'm not speaking for all of them either, but I'm not going to just dismiss the grievances put out there because you say, "Oh they're just being stupid," or something in that vein, which is ad hominem and doesn't address their argument, but generalizes them as being wrong because you don't want to engage or otherwise think you have a solution and they're just in denial (as if you couldn't be suffering from any of that presumption yourself)
 
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Ken-1122

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I didn't claim society was unified in that sense, and I'd seriously doubt you're referring to some place in America where white people are treated disproportionately,
Had a white actor did what Jesse Smollett did do you think things would have been different? Had a black actress did to a white person what Roseanne Barr did to a black person, do you think things would have been different? Had a white politician attended a church with a racist pastor to the extent Rev Wright was, do you think he would have gone on to become president like Obama did? Had a white actor went on a racist rant against black people the way Jesse Williams did at an awards show, do you think it would have been treated differently? Had this type of police killing happened to a black man, do you think public reaction would have been different?
All of these things happened in America

Whiteness is a generalized racial idea that isn't nearly as stable in its formation as blackness was as a response to preserving that identity in a society that was far more flexible as to what counted as white in a way that isn't nearly so with blackness in history.
I’m talking about white culture, vs black culture. Why do you feel one is more authentic than the other?
Yet you seem to think it doesn't really matter in the present at all, as if that historical reality doesn't persist in the minds of some, even if they might be a more extreme example of clinging to the past or engaging in historical denialism about American's racial issues
I don’t allow my ancestors treatment to prevent me from moving foreword.
Only if you understand privilege in a sense that skews towards your idea that everyone treats everyone else equally regardless of race and there's no subconscious elements or social conditioning to consider even from well meaning people that aren't being malicious. That's moving the goalposts to the point the game doesn't matter anymore
Speaking of moving the goal posts, I never said everybody treats everybody equally. That is some stuff you keep bringing to the table; almost like you want me to take that position. If you are gonna put words in my mouth, make sure they are my words; not some stuff you just make up.
 
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Ken-1122

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Well everyone is biased about some things. To be completely devoid of bias you'd have to be a robot that was programmed only with 100% proven facts.
Not just any type of bias, specifically racial bias. Are you saying EVERYONE has racial bias against those of a different race than their own? What about someone like me who is black? According to ancestory.com, the average black American is only 65% sub-Saharan African; that means they are 35% something else (likely white due to slavery) does that mean if I am 65% I can only have love for others who are my exact percentage? What about someone like Obama who is 50%? Or someone who is 85% black? Where do I have to draw the line before I can have complete love for someone? And what about other differences; tall vs short, skinny vs big, etc. Where do I draw the line?
 
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Strathos

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Not just any type of bias, specifically racial bias. Are you saying EVERYONE has racial bias against those of a different race than their own? What about someone like me who is black? According to ancestory.com, the average black American is only 65% sub-Saharan African; that means they are 35% something else (likely white due to slavery) does that mean if I am 65% I can only have love for others who are my exact percentage? What about someone like Obama who is 50%? Or someone who is 85% black? Where do I have to draw the line before I can have complete love for someone? And what about other differences; tall vs short, skinny vs big, etc. Where do I draw the line?

Everyone has bias based on many factors. No one is going to just look at another person and not make some kind of subconscious conclusion from their appearance alone, even if they reject that conclusion later.
 
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Ken-1122

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Everyone has bias based on many factors. No one is going to just look at another person and not make some kind of subconscious conclusion from their appearance alone, even if they reject that conclusion later.
Great! Now care to answer my question?
 
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Ken-1122

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When you take the position that you cannot be wrong and continue to persist with that attitude of superiority, that doesn't help, it just shows that you want to deflect responsibility onto everyone else instead of admitting you may have an issue, which is still an issue of humility that you refuse to take at all because somehow that would be self hatred or such.
I never claimed to be never wrong, I'm saying unless you know me, or at least converse with me, I won't allow you to judge me as racially bias
Because they don't have the same experience you do, that's common sense that seems all too uncommon: see the sympathy/empathy distinction I made
Having the same experiences isn't necessary in order to deal with the same issues in life
The problem is the immigrants don't, because they come from a culture where they could accrue generational wealth,
No. These people come from 3rd world countries, they have less generational wealth than native blacks.
Oh yeah, I'm sure you've talked to plenty of BLM supporters in an honest fashion.
I have family members involved in it, and we have had more discussions on this subject than you realize.
Yeah, the problem is white pride is unnecessary because, as I already pointed out, whites were never marginalized in America, they were the norm, they were glorified, they were seen as the base for success in history.
I'm not talking about a hundred years ago, I'm talking about today!
Black pride is not teh same because it isn't based on your skewed idea that they are being arrogant, but are asserting that they will not be marginalized:
To have pride in who you are is necessary for everybody; not just black people.
The problem is not going to be solved by just policing more, that's what you appear to think,
I never said anything about more police is necessary. Address what I said and quit making stuff up!
So how do you propose to change the "street culture" that leads to black on black violence?
By changing the destructive culture that says getting good grades in school is acting white (even Obama spoke on this at the DNC) by changing the "no snitching" culture that says when you see a crime taking place, look the other way, don't report it, don't snitch, by refusing to glamorize baby mama, baby daddy out of wedlock births, these are things only those within the culture can change.
Why do you think this is purely the responsibility of black people to deal with rather than considering that circumstances were not always conducive to this problem and that a white majority culture put in policies they thought would help but failed to consider other factors relative to those policies.
So we supposed to look to the white man to save us from our own destructive cultures? George Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations...... C'mon man! I'm starting to think he was talking about you!
Bias is not terrible in the basic sense that we all have it,
Racial bias IS a terrible thing, and we all DON'T have it.
you're exaggerating what I said entirely, as if I'm accusing you of malice rather than mere ignorance that you refuse to acknowledge
Malice, ignorance, it doesn'ot matter, racial bias is bad; if it were not we wouldn't be trying to rid it.
You don't get to speak for all black people and I'm not speaking for all of them either, but I'm not going to just dismiss the grievances put out there
I'm not telling you to dismiss grievances, I'm just saying quit acting as if those grievances apply to all black people; they don't.
 
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gaara4158

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Had a white actor did what Jesse Smollett did do you think things would have been different? Had a black actress did to a white person what Roseanne Barr did to a black person, do you think things would have been different? Had a white politician attended a church with a racist pastor to the extent Rev Wright was, do you think he would have gone on to become president like Obama did? Had a white actor went on a racist rant against black people the way Jesse Williams did at an awards show, do you think it would have been treated differently? Had this type of police killing happened to a black man, do you think public reaction would have been different?
Of course they’d be different. Do you think they shouldn’t be?
I’m talking about white culture, vs black culture. Why do you feel one is more authentic than the other?
What is white culture and black culture?
I don’t allow my ancestors treatment to prevent me from moving foreword.
Then clearly it’s someone else preventing you from spelling your words correctly.
 
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muichimotsu

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Had a white actor did what Jesse Smollett did do you think things would have been different? Had a black actress did to a white person what Roseanne Barr did to a black person, do you think things would have been different? Had a white politician attended a church with a racist pastor to the extent Rev Wright was, do you think he would have gone on to become president like Obama did? Had a white actor went on a racist rant against black people the way Jesse Williams did at an awards show, do you think it would have been treated differently? Had this type of police killing happened to a black man, do you think public reaction would have been different?

Yes, they would've been different, we see this plenty: a white person that does the horrible things we see wasn't a terrorist, they were "mentally unstable" or such.

You're really just proving my point in the idea that black people are treated differently and you pick that which is spun by the media in one way but ignore how the majority of incidents are not in favor of that idea that black people are given special treatment, but treated in a disparaging fashion by law enforcement and society. You think we haven't had white people go on racist rants in public places as celebrities and then moved on from it?

White people have had no issue getting around controversies and become president, look at Donald Trump 4 years ago, the observation I made just seems to have gone entirely over your head, that society in general doesn't give white people the same criticism they seem perfectly capable of doing for the black community, as if it's all their fault.



I’m talking about white culture, vs black culture. Why do you feel one is more authentic than the other?
Because one had to struggle, the other was the hegemonic norm: guess which one is which?


I don’t allow my ancestors treatment to prevent me from moving foreword.

Never said it did, but don't expect things to just be better because it's modern times, the systemic problems are still there, much as you want to bury your head in the sand and act like they don't

Speaking of moving the goal posts, I never said everybody treats everybody equally. That is some stuff you keep bringing to the table; almost like you want me to take that position. If you are gonna put words in my mouth, make sure they are my words; not some stuff you just make up.

So you acknowledge the problem is equity, not equality? Do you even understand the difference, first off?
 
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muichimotsu

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I never claimed to be never wrong, I'm saying unless you know me, or at least converse with me, I won't allow you to judge me as racially bias

Racially biased is not racist, that's the conflation you're making to act like a victim (ironic, given your insistence you aren't)

Having the same experiences isn't necessary in order to deal with the same issues in life
But it factors into how you approach them, you can't just claim everyone can work hard the same, that's ableist on its face


No. These people come from 3rd world countries, they have less generational wealth than native blacks.

But look what they don't have: the racial bias in society against them, these countries, I'm almost sure, are majority black and don't have the culture America does where we said, "Yeah, we can just buy black slaves, it's cool, the Bible says it's okay"
I have family members involved in it, and we have had more discussions on this subject than you realize.

Yet BLM is not monolithic, you can't try and point to riots and suggest every BLM supporter will do that, a theme I constantly see in the discussions as if the left doesn't condemn the riots, when Biden was accused of hypocrisy for condemning the capital riots when he also has condemned the riots relative to BLM protests

I'm not talking about a hundred years ago, I'm talking about today!

You can't divest society from history, 100 years ago can still have effects today, it's not mutually exclusive
To have pride in who you are is necessary for everybody; not just black people.

But white people never struggled in regards to being white, you just proved my point, that black pride, gay pride, etc, are not comparable to white or straight pride, because the idea of pride in this context is not applicable to a majority group that had a cultural hegemony for centuries.

I never said anything about more police is necessary. Address what I said and quit making stuff up!

You didn't say anything about how to solve the issue, you spoke in vagaries.

By changing the destructive culture that says getting good grades in school is acting white (even Obama spoke on this at the DNC) by changing the "no snitching" culture that says when you see a crime taking place, look the other way, don't report it, don't snitch, by refusing to glamorize baby mama, baby daddy out of wedlock births, these are things only those within the culture can change.

Because there is an implicit cultural stereotype about blacks being less smart and the same positive stereotype for Asians being good at math is also damaging in a similar manner.

"Glamorize" is a pointed word, are you suggesting that people are just saying it's good rather than the idea that good things can come from bad situations (which isn't glorifying it anymore than rape conceiving a child that's born means rape is okay)

Addressing those stereotypes is not purely a black thing, you act like white people don't hold those ideas at all or that they aren't responsible in part for spreading the ideas (majority racial group and cultural hegemony that I pointed out before)

So we supposed to look to the white man to save us from our own destructive cultures? George Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations...... C'mon man! I'm starting to think he was talking about you!
I didn't reduce this to white people, that's you hyperbolically exaggerating what I said. This should be a cooperative effort, it doesn't suggest negative expectations, it's observing that historically there have been trends that disproportionately affect black people and other minorities, that isn't trying to be a white savior, that is making society more equitable, taking away that idea in the first place, white people taking steps back in a way


Racial bias IS a terrible thing, and we all DON'T have it.

You cannot say that with absolute confidence, especially if you don't understand what is meant by racial bias, which isn't the same as racial prejudice

Malice, ignorance, it doesn'ot matter, racial bias is bad; if it were not we wouldn't be trying to rid it.

We cannot absolutely eliminate it, this is another strawman you make of the opposition to whatever idea you have, as if I think we can just be perfect in our interactions when no, social conditioning is always going to create those kinds of biases and we have to challenge them

I'm not telling you to dismiss grievances, I'm just saying quit acting as if those grievances apply to all black people; they don't.
You've already said neither of us can speak for all black people, so maybe don't make a universalizing statement in the negative when I didn't say it applied to all black people.

What was that about properly citing what I said you claimed?
 
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Ken-1122

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I believe in equal treatment regardless of your race.
I’m asking you, unfortunately.
I don't believe there is such a thing as black or white culture, but he does. When somebody believe something even if I don't believe it, I will often ask questions in the context of what they believe. That's why I asked him that question.
 
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Ken-1122

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Racially biased is not racist, that's the conflation you're making to act like a victim (ironic, given your insistence you aren't)
How are you defining “bias”? I define it (in this case) as an unfair prejudice against people of another race. If you define it differently, please explain.
But look what they don't have: the racial bias in society against them, these countries, I'm almost sure, are majority black and don't have the culture America does
1st AND 2nd generation blacks from the African Diaspora. What are native blacks dealing with than 2nd generation blacks from the Diaspora don’t have to deal with other than culture?
Yet BLM is not monolithic, you can't try and point to riots and suggest every BLM supporter will do that,
Did I mention riots as a problem I had with BLM? No.
You can't divest society from history, 100 years ago can still have effects today, it's not mutually exclusive
I believe on an individual basis, it can be done; it needs to be done.
But white people never struggled in regards to being white, you just proved my point,
Again; I’m talking about today. Today black people don’t struggle in regards of being black.
Addressing those stereotypes is not purely a black thing, you act like white people don't hold those ideas at all or that they aren't responsible in part for spreading the ideas (majority racial group and cultural hegemony that I pointed out before)
We are talking about fixing the black problems.
We cannot absolutely eliminate it,
At the individual level, it can be eliminated. That's how things need to be fixed; at the individual level
 
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