Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

I am so tired of this kind of 'woke' garbage, where being outraged is a substitute for being informed

Seems to me you're still falling into the same trap where your outrage and some notions that rationalize away any objections in general means that the whole idea is somehow inaccurate. Do you really think there's no such thing as cultural misappropriation or negative cultural stereotyping through colonialist influences in majority white dominant cultures?

It's one thing for someone to be inaccurate in the idea that the ankh was appropriated by Christians, or at least if it's applied to Egyptian Christians, because they'd obviously be more familiar with that symbol versus non Egyptian Christians with no ties to the culture appropriating it to spread Christianity elsewhere.

The latter would be problematic because it treats that cultural symbol as if it can be substituted for Christianity in all contexts rather than those which it can be a relative transition for those that are aware of the ankh from Egyptian culture over time and history.

 

[muichimotsu]

I'd have to show them to get the point across, and I'm pretty sure CF prohibits that kind of material, probably for good reason.

Seriously you cant think of any grotesque cultural stereotyping on your own?

When someone is so used to their privileged status, it can become painfully difficult to see past that and understand that what they regard as normal or just something to "deal with" is not so for the marginalized groups that view it negatively not just because of someone telling them, but due to their own lived experiences that will likely differ greatly from white people

 

[Quartermaine]

Now we're being told that dressing up in your favorite Halloween custume may offend someone.

PSA: These 10 Halloween “Costumes” Will Always Be Offensive

"So what does that look like? What counts as cultural appropriation? According to Marie Claire, the simple answer to that is you shouldn't dress up as a marginalized culture that isn't your own, and you most definitely shouldn't paint or color your skin to match someone else's."

wow...blackface is offensive???? who knew???

 

[Quartermaine]

Have you ever seen a black person dress up as a cowboy? The cowboys of the Old West were typically white, and the cowboy is stereotypically white. Should a black person dressing up as a cowboy be deemed as being offensive to white people?

Black cowboys in the American West accounted for up to 25 percent of workers in the range-cattle industry from the 1860s to 1880s,

 

[durangodawood]

Black cowboys in the American West accounted for up to 25 percent of workers in the range-cattle industry from the 1860s to 1880s,

So weird that people would take offence at un-erasing history.

 

[muichimotsu]

So weird that people would take offence at un-erasing history.

It's almost like some people don't understand or recognize white privilege as a valid social bias that favors them over marginalized minority groups.

 

[Triumvirate]

So weird that people would take offence at un-erasing history.

"Stick to history"

"er....ok"

"NO NOT LIKE THAT"

 

[Triumvirate]

But "cultural appropriation" is a contrivance with a fancy name, that's all. And it serves one side only.

You sound offended, ironically.

 

[Albion]

You sound offended, ironically.

You know, that line just doesn't make sense here where we had been talking about "cultural appropriation.''

 

[muichimotsu]

You know, that line just doesn't make sense here where we had been talking about "cultural appropriation.''

When the idea is that you should shut something down merely because you're offended appears to be the primary line of argument you're making instead of substantively pointing out problems that aren't a matter of your indignation at it versus legitimate inconsistencies.

HAve you even looked into the sociology that underpins concerns about cultural appropriation?


"Cultural and racial theorist George Lipsitz has used the term "strategic anti-essentialism" to refer to the calculated use of a cultural form, outside of one's own, to define oneself or one's group. Strategic anti-essentialism can be seen in both minority cultures and majority cultures, and is not confined only to the use of the other. However, Lipsitz argues, when the majority culture attempts to strategically anti-essentialize itself by appropriating a minority culture, it must take great care to recognize the specific socio-historical circumstances and significance of these cultural forms so as not to perpetuate the already existing majority vs. minority unequal power relations"

"Opponents of cultural appropriation view many instances as wrongful appropriation when the subject culture is a minority culture or is subordinated in social, political, economic, or military status to the dominant culture[24][25] or when there are other issues involved, such as a history of ethnic or racial conflict.[6] Linda Martín Alcoff writes that this is often seen in cultural outsiders' use of an oppressed culture's symbols or other cultural elements, such as music, dance, spiritual ceremonies, modes of dress, speech, and social behaviour when these elements are trivialized and used for fashion, rather than respected within their original cultural context.[39] Opponents view the issues of colonialism, context, and the difference between appropriation and mutual exchange as central to analyzing cultural appropriation. They argue that mutual exchange happens on an "even playing field", whereas appropriation involves pieces of an oppressed culture being taken out of context by a people who have historically oppressed those they are taking from, and who lack the cultural context to properly understand, respect, or utilize these elements."

A lot of the discussion means to distinguish it from acculturation, assimilation or equal cultural exchange contrasted with the colonialist aspects that tend to happen, especially in America, as much as the country is very diverse, white people often have a culturally ignorant perspective (myself included in my past and even to an extent in the present)

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I was happy to see that Black Klansman, Jewish Nazi, and Pedophile Hobo did not make the list this year.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, because white people weren't marginalized, you don't even understand the criticism because you're apparently so privileged, you can't see past your own nose as you look down on others

Are you saying that white people who are offended have to just accept it, but black people are somehow entitled to having their complaints about being offended addressed?

 

[Aldebaran]

I do think youve rightly pointed out some very silly oversensitivity around these issues.

But I reject the counterargument that nothing in the realm of cultural stereotypes should be considered offensive, which is what I seem to be hearing.

It's not just the stereotypes that I'm talking about, but rather what they refer to as cultural appropriation.

 

[Aldebaran]

So you don't see any issue with doing a costume that is encouraging negative stereotypes about, for instance, black people, by utilizing imagery that marginalized and demeaned them by minstrel shows in the 18th and 19th centuries?

Or wearing a Native American headdress that is to be used in solemn ceremonies, not by some wannabee that thinks they understand it and thus gets to use it because of culture favoring them and giving them more lenient treatment because of being in a majority racial group, whites.

People wearing a costume on Halloween isn't about someone thinking they understand the character they're dressing up as. People put on costumes for fun. Otherwise, would you have a problem with a black girl dressing up as Frozen's Elsa? We know darned well that a black girl dressing up as Elsa isn't wrong. The response from the BLM type would be, "You can't tell a black girl how she's allowed to express herself!" However, a white person certainly can, apparently.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's almost like some people don't understand or recognize white privilege as a valid social bias that favors them over marginalized minority groups.

What "white-privilege" are you referring to this time? Or are you just throwing that term around as a way of dog-whistling to the BLM crowd?

 

[Quartermaine]

Are you saying that white people who are offended have to just accept it, but black people are somehow entitled to having their complaints about being offended addressed?

what Halloween costumes are white people offended by?

 

[Sabertooth]

1. The conventions of a pagan festival are of no import to Christianity proper.
2. Just from a logical perspective: why get offended at "cultural appropriation," when the festival Samhain [Halloween], itself, is a cultural appropriation?
3. October 31st will always be Reformation Day to me.

 

[muichimotsu]

Are you saying that white people who are offended have to just accept it, but black people are somehow entitled to having their complaints about being offended addressed?

White people being offended shows they don't understand their own privileged position in terms of societal bias. Your being offended demonstrates ignorance in regards to the idea that all races are treated equally when we can show it isn't the case for America in particular.

 

[muichimotsu]

what Halloween costumes are white people offended by?

I feel like their confusion is based on the idea that somehow there's white culture that can be appropriated when that's really not the case, far as I can tell. We as white people appropriate cultures all the time in our history of colonialism.

 

[muichimotsu]

People wearing a costume on Halloween isn't about someone thinking they understand the character they're dressing up as. People put on costumes for fun. Otherwise, would you have a problem with a black girl dressing up as Frozen's Elsa? We know darned well that a black girl dressing up as Elsa isn't wrong. The response from the BLM type would be, "You can't tell a black girl how she's allowed to express herself!" However, a white person certainly can, apparently.

It isn't about them understanding, it's the glorification of a colonialist mindset that a white person can just appropriate any other culture because it's just their right to do so in a culture that glorifies whiteness as the norm and minorities as just an afterthought.

No, because Elsa is 1) a fictional character and 2) her being white is entirely optional to the story that is told. And 3) she's white, so really a black person wanting to emulate her is in a way just playing into white privilege because there are so few black role models in fiction, particularly Disney, in the first place, so they really have very little choice but to dress up as what are overwhelmingly more white princess, white and blonde/black/brunette haired no less, even red haired princesses or such fairly rare.

Pretty sure no one is saying black people cannot do cultural appropriation, but their doing so is because of a society that places privilege onto whiteness in various cultural contexts, including fiction. Have you heard of the whitewashing problem in terms of pop culture? I'm excited, personally, for the new live action Little Mermaid because the lead is supposed to be black from the information we have, which means they're changing that cultural bias towards whiteness