Hacking at the leaves...

[probinson]

It's been about a week or so since I've posted anything here. I've read a lot though, and I've even typed a few responses that I didn't bother to post. Every time I went to post in a discussion, I just got the feeling like Christians are trying to cut down trees by hacking at the leaves.

(Disclaimer: This next section is not meant to attack or question the rules of this forum, simply an observation that I believe relevant to my point).

Christians love rules. Just take a look at all the rules here at CF. I'll use one we're all familiar with; "No flaming". Sounds noble, doesn't it? But why on earth do we have to tell other Christians not to flame people? Shouldn't Christians, who Jesus said are supposed to be known by their Love for one another, not WANT to flame others?

By addressing only the "leaf" of flaming, the root remains untouched and strong. IOW, if it is in people's hearts to "flame", then telling them, "don't do that", might pluck the leaf off the tree temporarily, but the root remains firmly planted.

Christians are all about rules. No smoking. No drinking. No swearing. No flaming. The list could go on and on. And yet, every one of those things and more are merely leaves on a much deeply rooted tree.

To the contrary, I believe that God desires to change us from the inside out, while so many Christians desperately try to change people from the outside in. Instead of going to the root of the problem, so many Christians are hacking away at the leaves in futility.

Going back to the "flaming" example, instead of us not flaming people at CF because THE RULES say we're not allowed to, we shouldn't flame people at CF because we don't WANT to. This may seem a subtle difference on the outside, but on the inside, the difference is like night and day. If we're not flaming because the rules say we can't, then our heart has likely not been changed, and we are simply being controlled and manipulated by the rules. OTOH, if we don't flame people because we don't want to, then it is likely because the Love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts, and He has changed from the inside out.

This is the message of the grace of God that transforms lives. Doctrine and theology don't change people. "Rules" don't change people. It is only a revelation of the grace and Love of our God that can truly change people into His image from the inside out.

 

[JimB]

Hmmm. Interesting.

I am still trying to get a handle on what this forum means by “flaming”. I still haven’t figured it out.

Jesus used sarcasm frequently, and irony, and satire, and derision. He called the king a “fox” and told Peter his remarks were of the devil. If Jesus were in this forum and posted Matthew 23, he would be banned for “flaming”.

So, personally, I think flaming is a relative term, depending on the Mod’s definition of what it means. I don’t think there is a working definition of precisely what it means here at CF. Perhaps the owners of CF should think about defining their terms before they ban someone for doing something we don’t know what it is.

JMO.

~Jim

We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the Divine love may rest “well pleased.” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[imperfectchristian]

Good points. What if we just stopped judging each other and agreed to abide by two principles...to love God and love each other. That covers it all doesn't it? Even those who mess up.

 

[MadameGuyon]

If we're not flaming because the rules say we can't, then our heart has likely not been changed, and we are simply being controlled and manipulated by the rules. OTOH, if we don't flame people because we don't want to, then it is likely because the Love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts, and He has changed from the inside out.

This is the message of the grace of God that transforms lives. Doctrine and theology don't change people. "Rules" don't change people. It is only a revelation of the grace and Love of our God that can truly change people into His image from the inside out.

I agree with all that you've said, and will just add this thought. In any household there have to be rules for children, because they haven't internalized a love of good behavior or understand good character. They simply want their way. Is it any different in the household of God?


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. .............For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
"In every household there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor."
"The law is for the disobedient..."

 

[Faulty]

Hmmm. Interesting.

I am still trying to get a handle on what this forum means by “flaming”. I still haven’t figured it out.

Jesus used sarcasm frequently, and irony, and satire, and derision. He called the king a “fox” and told Peter his remarks were of the devil. If Jesus were in this forum and posted Matthew 23, he would be banned for “flaming”.

So, personally, I think flaming is a relative term, depending on the Mod’s definition of what it means. I don’t think there is a working definition of precisely what it means here at CF. Perhaps the owners of CF should think about defining their terms before they ban someone for doing something we don’t know what it is.

JMO.

~Jim

We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the Divine love may rest “well pleased.” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

Hnag on. let me check my recent PM's and see if I can get the definition of 'flaming' from them, because that word sure is mentioned a bit.

 

[Deba]

Hnag on. let me check my recent PM's and see if I can get the definition of 'flaming' from them, because that word sure is mentioned a bit.

A CF bad boy fessing up!

 

[Deba]

Pete I do believe that most of us do live from the inside out. For me personally this is a place of recreation. Learn a little, teach a little, argue a little...it's all good and very relaxing. I like posts where someone is impassioned about something.

I miss guys like Sandstone and Black Sabb. I enjoy MsBo's humor and JimB and Balance intentionally misunderstanding each other. I don't enjoy the constant repeating (clanging?) of a pet doctrine in every thread, regardless of the topic.

I don't see why anyone is out to cut down trees - it's recreational, but not without benefit, IMHO.

 

[KingZzub]

Hmmm. Interesting.

I am still trying to get a handle on what this forum means by “flaming”. I still haven’t figured it out.

Jesus used sarcasm frequently, and irony, and satire, and derision. He called the king a “fox” and told Peter his remarks were of the devil. If Jesus were in this forum and posted Matthew 23, he would be banned for “flaming”.

So, personally, I think flaming is a relative term, depending on the Mod’s definition of what it means. I don’t think there is a working definition of precisely what it means here at CF. Perhaps the owners of CF should think about defining their terms before they ban someone for doing something we don’t know what it is.

JMO.

~Jim

We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the Divine love may rest “well pleased.” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

hear, hear...

 

[probinson]

I agree with all that you've said, and will just add this thought. In any household there have to be rules for children, because they haven't internalized a love of good behavior or understand good character.

See, I don't think I agree that children need to have a list of rules to follow. Let me explain to you what I mean.

When most people hear me say this, the first thing they think is, CHAOS! What that demonstrates is just how much we as humans value "rules". We have been deceived into believing that simply Loving people is insufficient, and that without a set of rules to follow, there will be MADNESS! MADNESS I TELL YOU!

Now, I am the father of a 6-year old boy and a 2-year old girl. We have never had a set of codified "rules" at our house. We just live and walk in Love.

Now, this does not mean that my children are permitted to just run amuck through the house, doing whatever they please whenever they feel like it, because that is not what Love does. It also doesn't mean that my children are perfect and flawless, and that there aren't consequences for their actions, and it certainly doesn't mean we're all just a bunch of hippie flower children gently tossing flower petals around the house.

What it does mean is that when my son hits his little sister, rather than saying, "You know you're not allowed to hit your sister.", his mother and I say something like, "You're supposed to Love your sister. Do you think hitting your sister shows her how much you Love her?" In the first example, inadvertently or otherwise, I am instilling in my son that he should not hit his sister because he's not allowed to. In the second instance, it makes him think about what his actions portrayed to his sister, and teaches him that he should not want to hit his sister. Again, this may seem trivial, but I believe it is a major difference.

Rules manipulate; Love changes.

Now this may seem silly to some people, but I believe that I am training my children as best I can to walk in God's Love, not because our house rules say that they have to, but because they desire to. I am holding fast to the promise that as I raise my children in the way they should go, when they grow older, they will not depart from it.

There are only 2 commandments that I want my children to follow; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself. If I can instill those 2 values into my children, no other "rules" will be needed.

About a year ago, God spoke this to me;

No rules. No law. Just Love.

I am just beginning to understand what that means. When we truly Love people with the Love of God, we don't need "rules" to tell us what to do. We act based not upon what the rules say we should or should not do, but based upon the Love of God that has been shed abroad in our heart.

 

[bobznew]

I am just beginning to understand what that means. When we truly Love people with the Love of God, we don't need "rules" to tell us what to do. We act based not upon what the rules say we should or should not do, but based upon the Love of God that has been shed abroad in our heart.

 

[probinson]

I don't see why anyone is out to cut down trees

If we don't desire to have a relationship with God and for Him to change us into His image and likeness, then I really don't know what the purpose of Christianity is supposed to be. For that to happen, God needs to change us from the inside out. That is what I mean by "cutting down trees". When we try to change from the outside in, we're simply hacking at leaves. When we allow God to change us from the inside out, He gets straight to the root.

To use an example from a recent thread, the question has been asked in the last week here whether or not we should use sarcasm in our speech. IMO, that is a leaf. If I am using sarcasm in my speech with the intent to hurt people, then it is indicative of a deeper problem within me. Sarcasm is not to blame. The question for me then is not, should I use sarcasm, but rather, is what I'm saying demonstrating the Love of God to that person, regardless of what my tone may be.

So if I am not using hurtful sarcasm in my speech simply because the rules here say I'm not allowed to, then I have not changed at all. IOW, if my heart's desire to not use hurtful sarcasm is not changed, then I have simply been manipulated to conform to a rule.

That is what I mean when I say God must change us from the inside out. Christians all over the world are trying to conform to what the rules say they ought to do and how they should act, but there has been no real change in them on the inside. They simply have an outward conformance to "the rules" idea of how we should act.

People manipulate one another with rules. God changes our heart with His Love.

 

[probinson]

Good points. What if we just stopped judging each other and agreed to abide by two principles...to love God and love each other. That covers it all doesn't it? Even those who mess up.

That sure does cover it all. That's probably why when Jesus was questioned about the commandments, He responded by listing only those 2. If we Love God and Love each other, there is no need for "rules".

It's a scary proposition for sure, but I believe it's what God desires for us; to be so consumed by His Love that we don't need "rules" to manipulate our behavior and our actions.

 

[imperfectchristian]

See, I don't think I agree that children need to have a list of rules to follow. Let me explain to you what I mean.

When most people hear me say this, the first thing they think is, CHAOS! What that demonstrates is just how much we as humans value "rules". We have been deceived into believing that simply Loving people is insufficient, and that without a set of rules to follow, there will be MADNESS! MADNESS I TELL YOU!

Now, I am the father of a 6-year old boy and a 2-year old girl. We have never had a set of codified "rules" at our house. We just live and walk in Love.

Now, this does not mean that my children are permitted to just run amuck through the house, doing whatever they please whenever they feel like it, because that is not what Love does. It also doesn't mean that my children are perfect and flawless, and that there aren't consequences for their actions, and it certainly doesn't mean we're all just a bunch of hippie flower children gently tossing flower petals around the house.

What it does mean is that when my son hits his little sister, rather than saying, "You know you're not allowed to hit your sister.", his mother and I say something like, "You're supposed to Love your sister. Do you think hitting your sister shows her how much you Love her?" In the first example, inadvertently or otherwise, I am instilling in my son that he should not hit his sister because he's not allowed to. In the second instance, it makes him think about what his actions portrayed to his sister, and teaches him that he should not want to hit his sister. Again, this may seem trivial, but I believe it is a major difference.

Rules manipulate; Love changes.

Now this may seem silly to some people, but I believe that I am training my children as best I can to walk in God's Love, not because our house rules say that they have to, but because they desire to. I am holding fast to the promise that as I raise my children in the way they should go, when they grow older, they will not depart from it.

There are only 2 commandments that I want my children to follow; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself. If I can instill those 2 values into my children, no other "rules" will be needed.

About a year ago, God spoke this to me;

No rules. No law. Just Love.

I am just beginning to understand what that means. When we truly Love people with the Love of God, we don't need "rules" to tell us what to do. We act based not upon what the rules say we should or should not do, but based upon the Love of God that has been shed abroad in our heart.

OK that is really good...I am going to be quoting you on my facebook this morning.

What a blessing you are to your children!

 

[flaglady]

He's a blessing to all of us!

But please keep the 'rules' hypothetical, folks.
Don't want to sully this lovely thread with any mysteriously missing posts, do we?!

​

 

[~GodsMouthpiece~]

LOLROTFLOL...gotta say something dontcha!!

 

[~RENEE~]

while I agree with you Pete to some extent I for one am one that believes with out rules a house is out of control. "Christians" even go haywire once in a while it's part of being human. Some rules are good but then if they are frivolous and partial they are wrong and should be abolished.

 

[probinson]

while I agree with you Pete to some extent I for one am one that believes with out rules a house is out of control.

I am living proof that is not always the case.

My house does not have "rules", and people have commented to me when they are over visiting about how well behaved my children are. Now, they are not perfect angels by any stretch of the imagination, and they still require discipline, but it is not discipline because they broke the rules. It is discipline and training in the Love of God.

"Christians" even go haywire once in a while it's part of being human.

'Tis true. However, the Love and grace of God also encompasses our haywire moments (and we all have them).

 

[Simon Peter]

Hi Pete,

You've said some good stuff in this thread. The whole law verses grace issue is tough to wrestle with. I agree that love trumps the law, but be careful not to do away with the law.

I've found it useful to see the law as: good, helpful and right; but it doesn't get you anywhere!

Love must come first and then the law will follow. Our main focus should be on love.

See, I don't think I agree that children need to have a list of rules to follow. Let me explain to you what I mean.

There are only 2 commandments that I want my children to follow; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself. If I can instill those 2 values into my children, no other "rules" will be needed.

About a year ago, God spoke this to me;

No rules. No law. Just Love.

The 2 commandments encapsulate the whole of the law. The rest of the law hangs on them.

In-other-words, the 10 commandments are an outworking of the 2.
5 of the ten are about loving God, 5 are about loving men.
The 613 laws were then a more detailed application of the 10. The oral law then took the 613 and expanded them even further.

What I’m saying is I agree that if you obey the 2 laws you will obey the whole law. But it’s still the law.

You may say it’s all about love, but love and the law are inseparable. For you to love God and men requires you obey the law. For example, you can not steal from your neighbour if you love him.

But if we focus on the law, it will become a stark set of rules where legalism, social elitism, hypocrisy and ‘nit picking’ run amuck.

I agree that instead our focus should be on the love part, then we need not concern ourselves with the law, it will fall in line.

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

 

[bobznew]

Hi Pete,

You've said some good stuff in this thread. The whole law verses grace issue is tough to wrestle with. I agree that love trumps the law, but be careful not to do away with the law.

I've found it useful to see the law as: good, helpful and right; but it doesn't get you anywhere!

Love must come first and then the law will follow. Our main focus should be on love.



The 2 commandments encapsulate the whole of the law. The rest of the law hangs on them.

In-other-words, the 10 commandments are an outworking of the 2.
5 of the ten are about loving God, 5 are about loving men.
The 613 laws were then a more detailed application of the 10. The oral law then took the 613 and expanded them even further.

What I’m saying is I agree that if you obey the 2 laws you will obey the whole law. But it’s still the law.

You may say it’s all about love, but love and the law are inseparable. For you to love God and men requires you obey the law. For example, you can not steal from your neighbour if you love him.

But if we focus on the law, it will become a stark set of rules where legalism, social elitism, hypocrisy and ‘nit picking’ run amuck.

I agree that instead our focus should be on the love part, then we need not concern ourselves with the law, it will fall in line.

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

SUPERB.

 

[probinson]

Those are some good points, Simon.

I believe that the Love of God fulfills the law. So when we're walking in the Love of God, we don't steal from our neighbor because we don't want to. There's that fine distinction again. It's not that I CAN NOT steal from my neighbor, it's that I DON'T WANT TO because I Love my neighbor.

If one sets out to obey the law, they will fail. Every. Time. It is inevitable in our fallen, human nature that we will fail to uphold every jot and tittle of the law. We CAN NOT obey the law, because the law requires absolute and total conformance, 100% of the time. The law shows us the need for a Savior. The law shows us the immeasurable value of God's grace.

That's really what I'm trying to get across. By focusing on outward things, people seek to control and manipulate others into conformance, rather than allowing God to change them from the inside out.

The law is fulfilled when we walk in Love, and when we break the law (which we all will), God's grace is there for us.