Guns and Schools - What Changed?

[DerSchweik]

The value of life. Moral values. Failure of parents to do their job and instead expecting schools to do it for them. Honestly things have not been the same since God was eliminated from schools. Also strange as it may sound I think kids benefited when mom was able to stay at home and spend much more time with them. Mom helps you get over minor problems with other kid before they become reasons to want to kill someone, we learn many things from Mom.

I suspect the radical change in the value of life over the last 60 years, and the change in personal morals from the '60's are likely huge suspects, yes.

 

[DerSchweik]

These days our society doesnt want to subject our children to the harsh standard of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" in any class or activity.

The Golden Rule addressed race, sex, those with different perspectives, etc

You probably have a point there...

 

[DerSchweik]

the 2nd amendment was essentially designed to have a well-armed militia during the early years of the country which was a legitimate threat since the US revolted against British colonial rule and so encouraged the whole country to be stocked far and wide. today that reason is irrelevant but now it's ingrained in the culture and protected by the constution. it's one of their American value systems the whole world doesn't understand but it makes sense in an American vacuum.

First, this isn't about the 2nd amendment. That said, you contradict your own point by asserting the purpose of the 2nd amendment was the "legitimate threat" posed by the US revolt against British colonial but in the same breath acknowledge it's in the Constitution - written to govern the United States long after our shackles of British rule were shed. The founding fathers had a far better appreciation for an armed citizenry than you permit.

Moreover, America isn't the only "value system" where an armed citizenry is valued. Switzerland and Israel come immediately to mind.

The only thing a tyrannical dictatorship fears more than an informed citizenry is an armed one. This our founding fathers understood quite well and was a key principle in the formation of our Constitution. You might take some time to read some of the Federalist Papers in this regard - could be helpful. Federalist #46 would be a good start:

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of....

 

[coffee4u]

What changed?

Probably when they started pointing them at each other.

 

[DerSchweik]

Spot on. Americans are a warlike people who fetishise their weapons to the point of worship.

Solving even minor problems with force of arms is part of their culture and American society teaches people this every day.

With all due respect, might not your attitude here be somewhat colored by the fact that you're British? (just sayin)

 

[DerSchweik]

Probably when they started pointing them at each other.

Cute.

Any insights as to why that might have happened?

 

[coffee4u]

Cute.

Any insights as to why that might have happened?

Well its your whole gun culture. This mindset that thinks its okay for all and sundry to carry or own weapons. I'm not sure I even understand it frankly.
But what changed is the family. The family was a strong unit way back when but now its all absent fathers, parents on drugs, just generally more family break down. So now the guns are still their hands but in the hands of troubled and hurting youth.

 

[Fantine]

Der Schweik, please reference your statistical allegations.

Listen in to any group of Democrats and hear what they think about gun rights people. It's good to get out of your bubble sometimes.

Knowing what they really think might shock you. Make you angry. They have a right--and a reason--to think the way they do.

They have a right--and I think a moral obligation--to challenge extreme views.

I have fulfilled my obligation. Shrug.

Look at my nickname. Dona Quixote.

"To fight for the right without question or pause.
To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause."

Mission accomplished...for this thread.

But since you asked, the healthiest families i know are gun free. Healthy families with guns are healthy despite the guns, for reasons having nothing to do with the guns.

 

[DerSchweik]

< snip >
But what changed is the family. The family was a strong unit way back when but now its all absent fathers, parents on drugs, just generally more family break down. So now the guns are still their hands but in the hands of troubled and hurting youth.

Ok, so now we're getting somewhere - breakdown of the family. I think that's a valid theory, certainly, cuz, it's definitely been happening.

And as your theory admits (and I don't really take issue with it), guns are now in the hands of troubled youth.

Ok - so assuming your theory is valid - what do you think is the solution? Addressing the breakdown in the family that is resulting in troubled youth, or eliminating the right to bear arms?

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

I don't think "gun veneration" is the issue at all.

Actually, I think it is. In fact, I'd argue that it's the pro-gun people themselves that helped bring about the change - though I certainly don't believe it's the only factor.

If you want to go back to "when kids took guns to school" you need to look at how guns were viewed.
IMO back then guns were a tool. Most of those kids were carrying .22 rifles, their dad probably had a lever-action .303 or a shotgun. The kids took them to school for target shooting, dad and sons probably shot rabbits and game birds for food on the weekend, maybe dad did a little hunting now and then.

No-one was complaining that the government was coming to get them because they couldn't open carry an AR-15 or some other semi-auto military style rifle because that would have been complete overkill and people back then would have dismissed it as such. Nobody was lobbying against even simple registration and background checks in the face of constant mass shootings or claiming that it was part of some vast conspiracy to take their guns away.

If you want to go back to those days, you need the gun culture to go back to those days too.

 

[renniks]

2013 Article in the National Review

Guns in schools used to be accepted, common, safe. Kids used to bring their guns to schoool, walk the halls with them, fire them in basement firing ranges inside the schools.

Not so anymore.

What changed?

The family unit. And teaching kids responsibility.

 

[renniks]

As we advanced as a society we discovered that it was probably best not to send all the children to school with murder machines.

That's not even the question. Why were kids not killing each other with those machines then if the machines were the problem?
Maybe because a good wrestling match could solve disagreements without the need for further violence? Now, it's like everything is escalated, like they decide to kill the bully instead of giving him a fat lip. Whatever's changed its not the guns, they don't fire themselves.

 

[DerSchweik]

Der Schweik, please reference your statistical allegations.

Listen in to any group of Democrats and hear what they think about gun rights people. It's good to get out of your bubble sometimes.

Knowing what they really think might shock you. Make you angry. They have a right--and a reason--to think the way they do.

They have a right--and I think a moral obligation--to challenge extreme views.

I have fulfilled my obligation. Shrug.

Look at my nickname. Dona Quixote.

"To fight for the right without question or pause.
To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause."

Mission accomplished...for this thread.

Out of curiosity, have you even read Cervantes' novel?

I ask cuz you might want to check the condition of your mule, Ms Quixote. It just might turn out that all your righteous feelings are like the character you seem to identify yourself with, nothing more than imaginary windmills that a misguided sense of social romance conjured up. I dunno - pure conjecture, being your analogy.

Anyhoo, off-topic banter aside, can we safely say you've decided to suspend your attempts to derail this thread with any further romantic notions of "heavenly causes?"

 

[ThatRobGuy]

2013 Article in the National Review

Guns in schools used to be accepted, common, safe. Kids used to bring their guns to schoool, walk the halls with them, fire them in basement firing ranges inside the schools.

Not so anymore.

What changed?

A couple things...

1) Desensitization to using them for violent purposes. (IE: kids growing up in a more violent environment - seeing violence as the way problems get solved in the streets - and eventually emulating the behavior)


2) Lack of discipline, and not just for the kids engaging in the shooting, but for the other kids at the school as well, as bullying (and that bullying going unpunished) really ramped up. Back when I was in high school (and this is going back 20 years now), we had a incident where a kid brought a non-gun weapon to school and threatened some people with it in the locker room. It was because he was getting bullied regularly, didn't really have any friends, and faculty wasn't doing anything about it because the people doing the bullying were "important to the athletics programs". There's only so many times the 140 pound kid can tolerate getting roughed up in the locker room by multiple jocks (who all were much larger)... everything from physical abuse...to other things like throwing his belongings in the toilet. So the one day, he brought a large kitchen knife to school and threatened them with it in the locker room after gym class. Needless to say, he got expelled, the jocks didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. That kind of stuff goes on in school districts all over the country.


3) A ramp up of bidirectional hateful rhetoric about other people being "the enemy". When kids hear adults talking about other adults that way, they're going to start dehumanizing those they have disagreements with.

 

[DerSchweik]

Actually, I think it is. In fact, I'd argue that it's the pro-gun people themselves that helped bring about the change - though I certainly don't believe it's the only factor.

If you want to go back to "when kids took guns to school" you need to look at how guns were viewed.
IMO back then guns were a tool. Most of those kids were carrying .22 rifles, their dad probably had a lever-action .303 or a shotgun. The kids took them to school for target shooting, dad and sons probably shot rabbits and game birds for food on the weekend, maybe dad did a little hunting now and then.

No-one was complaining that the government was coming to get them because they couldn't open carry an AR-15 or some other semi-auto military style rifle because that would have been complete overkill and people back then would have dismissed it as such. Nobody was lobbying against even simple registration and background checks in the face of constant mass shootings or claiming that it was part of some vast conspiracy to take their guns away.

If you want to go back to those days, you need the gun culture to go back to those days too.

Well, I generally agree about no one complaining about government coming to get them, per se, or because they couldn't open carry, but - what prompted them to start complaining if it wasn't the government threatening those things when they weren't before? Isn't it at least somewhat fair to say that it wasn't until certain people and groups started going after gun rights (via the government) that gun right activists were born?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Maybe because a good wrestling match could solve disagreements without the need for further violence? Now, it's like everything is escalated, like they decide to kill the bully instead of giving him a fat lip. Whatever's changed its not the guns, they don't fire themselves.

It would depend on the extent of the bullying, and the physical disparities between the bully and their victim.

Despite what the movies suggest (about Daniel taking karate lessons and finally putting Johnny Lawrence in his place), in the real world, it doesn't always work out that way.

If you have a 130 pound kid taking regular beatings from the 200lbs captain of the football or wrestling team...that bully's not getting a fat lip anytime soon.

Maybe that's part of it... maybe the physical disparities between bullies and their targets have grown larger to the point where some of the bullied kids feel they can't defend themselves the "old fashioned way" like they used to?

Not saying that's necessarily the case, but just an idea.

Even in just the time since I graduated from HS (which was in 2001)...I see some of the wrestlers and football players in high schools these days, and they look like they'd give most adults a run for their money.

I never played football, but I wrestled in high school, and I don't recall anyone on the team ever looking like this:

For a point of comparison, here's what a championship wrestling team for HS looked like in the 80's...

If any of the 3 guys above decided they wanted to be a "bully", and pick on some kid who was 130 pounds, incessantly throughout the school year, that kid's not going to be able to do anything about it, and if faculty opts to not do anything about it, that kid's going to get more deranged and unstable the longer it goes on.

 

[DerSchweik]

A couple things...

1) Desensitization to using them for violent purposes. (IE: kids growing up in a more violent environment - seeing violence as the way problems get solved in the streets - and eventually emulating the behavior)

Can't really argue with that - then there is the prevalence of violent video games some attribute that desensitization to.

2) Lack of discipline, and not just for the kids engaging in the shooting, but for the other kids at the school as well, as bullying (and that bullying going unpunished) really ramped up. Back when I was in high school (and this is going back 20 years now), we had a incident where a kid brought a non-gun weapon to school and threatened some people with it in the locker room. It was because he was getting bullied regularly, didn't really have any friends, and faculty wasn't doing anything about it because the people doing the bullying were "important to the athletics programs". There's only so many times the 140 pound kid can tolerate getting roughed up in the locker room by multiple jocks (who all were much larger)... everything from physical abuse...to other things like throwing his belongings in the toilet. So the one day, he brought a large kitchen knife to school and threatened them with it in the locker room after gym class. Needless to say, he got expelled, the jocks didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. That kind of stuff goes on in school districts all over the country.

Back when I was in school, such disputes were taken to the back of the school building and handled with fists. Bullies existed, but fewer in number; but there were also "enforcers" (white hat bullies) to whom the bullied could go for help .

3) A ramp up of bidirectional hateful rhetoric about other people being "the enemy". When kids hear adults talking about other adults that way, they're going to start dehumanizing those they have disagreements with.

This is something that's been bothering me for some time - something for which I genuinely have no answer or solution. Another word for it is "polarization." It's near absolute now and the only thing I've been able to find anywhere regarding how it goes away is cultural disintegration - society collapses, tyranny takes over, and society bands together to deal with the tyranny... I hope that's not where we're headed.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Can't really argue with that - then there is the prevalence of violent video games some attribute that desensitization to.

The video game theory is a common one. However, the data doesn't seem to support it as there are countries that consume more violent video games (per capita) than the US, but have lower levels of violent behavior overall.

Back when I was in school, such disputes were taken to the back of the school building and handled with fists. Bullies existed, but fewer in number; but there were also "enforcers" (white hat bullies) to whom the bullied could go for help .

In my reply to the other poster, I elaborated on another potential theory (not sure how much water it holds), but it's possible that there's a greater physical disparity between the bullies and the bullied than existed before...leaving the bullied to feel like they need to resort to more extreme means to end the bullying.

Look at high school athletes (athletes are often times the ones who are doing the bullying) from the 80's and 90's, and then look at high school athletes from the last 10 years...there's a massive difference.

I can picture an average kid being able to at least defend themselves (somewhat) against one of these guys

Here's what HS state champion wrestlers look like in the 2010's...

These 3 guys look like they could walk into a biker bar and hold their own.

 

[DerSchweik]

The video game theory is a common one. However, the data doesn't seem to support it as there are countries that consume more violent video games (per capita) than the US, but have lower levels of violent behavior overall.

...or it is just a relatively minor factor, others predominating.

In my reply to the other poster, I elaborated on another potential theory (not sure how much water it holds), but it's possible that there's a greater physical disparity between the bullies and the bullied than existed before...leaving the bullied to feel like they need to resort to more extreme means to end the bullying.

Look at high school athletes (athletes are often times the ones who are doing the bullying) from the 80's and 90's, and then look at high school athletes from the last 10 years...there's a massive difference.

I can picture an average kid being able to at least defend themselves (somewhat) against one of these guys

That photo looks like my HS Wrestling team. I'd be one of the bony guys on the bottom row.

In my school, it was the footballers who thought themselves better than the rest, but I can't say there was that much actual bullying going on; I'm sure some did, but it was more "nose up" kinda stuff than anything physical.

We just dealt with stuff differently. Tensions didn't run that high. Oh, we had fights - but they were "events" - "Everyone! Mark G. is facing off with Lowell T at the bottom of the hill after school!" and 30 people would show up to watch what usually ended up being a 2 or 3 minute scuffle.

Here's what HS state champion wrestlers look like in the 2010's...

View attachment 298904

These 3 guys look like they could walk into a biker bar and hold their own.

Pfft.... no doubt. Though I will say, there were some behemoth Cornhuskers wrestling back when I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. We had a few in my state as well. Very glad I was third string, ha!

 

[Fantine]

Since you feel the educational system is deficient, I assume you support President Biden's pre-K and community college. Teachers are underpaid. Teachers are dealing with many more social problems, including poverty.

My city had a sanitary napkin and tampon drive because girls who couldn't afford them were embarrassed to go to school. Underpaid teachers tried to buy some with their own money. The Waterpark has free swim day for each school but some kids couldn't afford bathing suits. The principal went shopping so kids could swim one day.

In some classes 3/4 of kindergartens speak no English.

Some kids have a parent in jail.

And your answer is guns? And blaming the parents?

"The Impossible Dream" is an inspirational anthem and love poem for idealists.

And so I am suggesting some solutions for school problems.

I will tell your non-solution to my preschool teacher friend.

She has to hold pancake drills for 3 year olds in the schoolyard. When she blows the whistle they have to lie down like pancakes for 5 minutes, practicing for possible shooting emergencies.

What are you doing to stop this? Must we strike terror into preschoolers because of gun rights activists who are willing to give 3 year olds nightmares because they have no sense of boundaries, no desire to keep guns out of the hands of sociopaths and dangerous people, no desire to.ban the most dangerous weapons? That this is necessary is pathetic!