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Ben johnson

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Quoted by MamaZ:
This is the putting off the old and walking in the new.. We are not to yield ourselves to sin and become slaves to sin but we are to walk by the Spirit.

He himself would become worthless.. For to preach and not live makes a man rejected by man for He does not live what he preaches.. Lets go on with what He is saying so we can get the full context of What Paul is saying here..
I agree with you; where is our disagreement?

Do you perceive there is a "worthless yielded-to-sin" condition, that's still "saved"?
 
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Beasley

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BenJohnson:

I would like to address your points one at a time.

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Hi, "Beasley". If we come to agreement on nothing else, I pray that we'll both recognize that salvation, is an indwelt fellowship between man and God.

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[FONT=&quot]No, we don't agree. Salvation and indwelt fellowship are two different things and I think I can demonstrate that for you.

I think you would agree that the OT saints were saved. Moses, Abraham, Daniel, David, Saul, Isaiah, Ezekiel, et al. But, they were not permanently indwelt by the Spirit or Christ or the Father, as we are at salvation.

Remember in John 7:39 it says that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Christ had not yet been glorified.[/FONT]

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But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
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[FONT=&quot]Only some of the OT saints were rested upon by the Spirit, not all of them and then only for specific purpose, and it is also said He dwelt in the camp or among the people but not in them.
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[FONT=&quot]Until Christ had been resurrected, ascended and seated, glorified, God did not permanently indwell believers. After Christ was glorified, the permanent indwelling of the Spirit was given at salvation.

Gal 3:2-3 shows the indwelling occurs at salvation as well as 1 Cor 6:19.

Gal. 3:2-3 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]As Christ said, the Spirit will be with you forever.
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[FONT=&quot]There are no OT passages that show Christ or the Father indwelling anyone. [/FONT]
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Eph. 1:13-14 shows the permanent indwelling of Christ upon faith in the Gospel you are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (resurrection) of His own possession. The seal is like a brand of ownership. The new creature in Christ is His. We are no longer our own.

The interesting thing is that Eph 4:25 begins a list of sins that Paul is telling the Ephesian believers to put aside and then in verse 30 states,

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That passage shows that the believer does sin, is to quit doing it and is still sealed in Christ until they receive their resurrection body though it saddens the Spirit.

To go back to my original point. The OT saint was saved without being indwelt, so fellowship and salvation are two entirely different things. [/FONT]

Beasley
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Beasley:
I would like to address your points one at a time.
Hi, "Beasley". That's fine. :)
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No, we don't agree. Salvation and indwelt fellowship are two different things and I think I can demonstrate that for you.
Do you believe one can be "saved", but without fellowship? Consider:
"What we have seen and heard and proclained, we proclaim also to you, that you may have fellowship with us. And indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. ...If we say we have fellowship with Him but walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Crist cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:1-3, 6-7

Salvation is not a "belief" (James2:19); he who has the Son, has eternal life. (1Jn5:11-13) It's not a doctrine, not a dogma, not a "list of do's and don'ts"; it's not WHAT we know, but WHO we know, and Who knows us.

"Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing He-who-You-sent (Me-Jesus)." Jn17:3
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I think you would agree that the OT saints were saved. Moses, Abraham, Daniel, David, Saul, Isaiah, Ezekiel, et al. But, they were not permanently indwelt by the Spirit or Christ or the Father, as we are at salvation.
That was a different covenant; Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, who did not indwell the person then, as He does now.

Nevertheless, the OT saint walked and communed with God through faith; then as now, it was not WHAT they knew, but WHO they knew.
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Remember in John 7:39 it says that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Christ had not yet been glorified.
That's right; the Spirit was "poured out on the world".
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But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
There is a "baptism in the Spirit", where "baptism" is "immersion", and has nothing to do with water. Matt3:11. There is also a "baptism into Christ", which unites us in His death (our old selves die), and into His resurrection (we are born-anew) in Rm6:1-4 (also has nothing to do with water). This "uniting", is fellowship. It is why the veil tore at the moment Jesus died --- the fellowship broken by Adam, was restored.

There is no salvation that exists without intimate fellowship.
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Only some of the OT saints were rested upon by the Spirit, not all of them and then only for specific purpose, and it is also said He dwelt in the camp or among the people but not in them.
And none of them "spoke in tongues". Their "mediators", were priests; ours is Jesus.
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Until Christ had been resurrected, ascended and seated, glorified, God did not permanently indwell believers. After Christ was glorified, the permanent indwelling of the Spirit was given at salvation.
Ahhh --- you do accept "indwelling". But the question remains, is it essential, or only desireable?
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Gal 3:2-3 shows the indwelling occurs at salvation as well as 1 Cor 6:19.

Gal. 3:2-3 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
"Galatians" is a poor reference for you; here was a group of people who undeniably WERE "saved" (begun in the Spirit, running well and obeying the truth, KNOWN BY GOD) --- but turned away from God and the doctrine of "grace" back to the Old Covenant of works. They became "fallen from grace and severed from Christ". 3:3, 5:7, 4:9, 5:4
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As Christ said, the Spirit will be with you forever.
How does the Spirit indwell? Through our faith? Yes.

What if that belief can become "unbelief"?

Can it?
Will the Spirit still indwell an unbeliever?
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There are no OT passages that show Christ or the Father indwelling anyone.
We're talking about Jesus' gospel of Grace; can one be "saved", but not necessarily "indwelt"? There are three facets of "OSAS" --- Antinomianism, Calvinism, and Eternal-Security.

Antinomianism asserts that salvation is RELATIONSHIP but not necessarily FELLOWSHIP with God; one can be actively fornicating, drunk, carousing, stealing, murdering --- but till still go to HEAVEN. The body may be "dead with sin", but the spirit is alive.
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Eph. 1:13-14 shows the permanent indwelling of Christ upon faith in the Gospel you are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (resurrection) of His own possession. The seal is like a brand of ownership. The new creature in Christ is His. We are no longer our own.
OK, first --- the concept of "unto/until" does not exist in Eph1:13-14; that passage clearly says "sealed AFTER BELIEVING". Please consider that "sealed" means the same as "received/poured-upon/gifted". From Acts10:43-47.

Second, the concept of "unto" DOES exist in Eph4:30: "Do not grieve the Spirit, by whom you were seaked UNTO the day of redemption". "Unto", not "until".

If we can "grieve the Spirit" (Eph4:30), if we can "insult the Spirit" (Heb10:29), if we can "quench the Spirit" (1Thess5:19), will He still remain in us?

Note that the Heb10:29 passage identifies a man who WAS SANCTIFIED by Jesus' blood, but now "tramples/scorns/insults". He is clearly no longer saved. But unless you can find a way for one to be "sanctified by Jesus' blood but never saved", or a way that "this is merely hypothetical", you'll hafta consider that salvation can become forfeit.
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The interesting thing is that Eph 4:25 begins a list of sins that Paul is telling the Ephesian believers to put aside and then in verse 30 states,

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Good --- "unto", not "until". Question --- if we can engage in sins, how then is it not possible to forfeit salvation? Can we be "sinfully-saved"?
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That passage shows that the believer does sin, is to quit doing it and is still sealed in Christ until they receive their resurrection body though it saddens the Spirit.
That's not what it says; the Spirit indwells the believer; if the Spirit continued in spite of sinning, He would PARTICIPATE in sin.

He will not.

"Grieve/Insult/Quench", means the Spirit "ceases indwelling".
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To go back to my original point. The OT saint was saved without being indwelt, so fellowship and salvation are two entirely different things.
The Old Covenant did not have the same indwelling; nevertheless salvation then, is as now, "communing with God".

Let's see if you agree with me that "we cannot walk in sin"; as Paul explains in Rom6, we are EITHER enslaved to God, OR enslaved to sin. He then explains "quit submitting yourselves to sin, but submit yourselves to Christ".
 
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