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Guard Duty

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ben johnson, Jun 15, 2008.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    "Be on guard that your hearts not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, that you may have strength to escape (flee-from) all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Lk21:34-36

    "Do not be deceived; ...drunkards ....shall not inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor6:9-10


    So how can we be charged to "guard our hearts", to "avoid drunkenness" (and recognizing that drunkards will not go to Heaven) --- if salvation is not forfeitable?

    Was Jesus talking to the UNSAVED? (Uhm, no; this conversation begins in Lk20:45 --- He was talking to the Disciples.)

    Was this something "hypothetical-can't-really-happen"? Doesn't read like that to me.

    What's the answer?

    :)
     
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  2. moonbeam

    moonbeam Senior Member Supporter

    +55
    Calvinist
    I am sure you have your answer Ben...but it's not Gods answer.

    :cool:
     
  3. Ormly

    Ormly Senior Veteran

    +87
    Christian

    Why don't you just explain the words Jesus instead obfuscating?
     
  4. moonbeam

    moonbeam Senior Member Supporter

    +55
    Calvinist
    I don't believe my comments were directed to you...so I do believe it is you who is obfuscating.

    :cool:
     
  5. Van

    Van Contributor

    +107
    Christian
    How does one become "un-born again" Ben. God causes us to be born again, as a new creation we are His workmanship. What was begun by the Spirit will not be completed by the flesh will it?
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Quoted by Moonbeam:
    I don't believe my comments were directed to you...so I do believe it is you who is obfuscating.
    What's your answer?

    1. (Disciples) "do not be weighed down with drunkenness"
    2. "Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom"

    Is drunkenness possible for the Disciples? Is this a real warning against drunkenness? Why, or why not?
     
  7. MamaZ

    MamaZ Guest

    +0
    Eph 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
    Eph 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
    Eph 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
    Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
    Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
    Eph 5:20 always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
    Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Quoted by Van:
    How does one become "un-born again" Ben. God causes us to be born again, as a new creation we are His workmanship.
    How does one BECOME "born again"? Per John1:12, we gain the right to become "born again", by believing and receiving Jesus. So the way to become UN-born-again, would be the opposite. If "belief" can become "unbelief", if "born-again" means "abiding in Christ and Christ abiding in us", and if those who are NOT saved are NOT believers (and do not have Christ --- "he who has not the Son has not the eternal life" 1Jn5:11-13), then it's only a question of whether those who WERE believing/indwelt, can become UNBELIEVING (un-indwelt).

    In Heb3:6-14 is a very clear warning not to "harden our own hearts", not to "become hardened by deceitful sin to unbelieving hearts that fall away from God". He says "we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." And this argument is further solidified in the next chapter: 4:11 "Be DILIGENT to not imitate the Israelites' unbelief and disobedience and fail to enter God's rest".
    Quote:
    What was begun by the Spirit will not be completed by the flesh will it?
    In Gal3:3, Paul worries "having BEGUN in the Spirit, are you now ENDING by the flesh?"

    The Galatians were "KNOWN by God, but turned back to weak/worthless things" (Law).

    They who returned to "works" and forsook "grace", were "SEVERED from Christ and fallen from grace". 5:4!

    If "drunkenness" is inseparable from "unbelief", then how does this passage not assert that "drunkenness is possible, even for the Disciples"?
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Quoted by MamaZ:
    Eph 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
    Eph 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
    Eph 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
    Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
    Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
    Eph 5:20 always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
    Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
    Excellent, "MamaZ". While you're in Ephesians, please tell me your "take" on Eph4:17-19. Is "walking in darkness as heathens do, excluded from the life in God" presented as POSSIBLE for us?
     
  10. Ormly

    Ormly Senior Veteran

    +87
    Christian
    Question Van:

    What would have happened to the prodical had he died before "he chose" to go home? What would he have missed out on?
     
  11. MamaZ

    MamaZ Guest

    +0
    Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
     
  12. Van

    Van Contributor

    +107
    Christian
    Ben, God causes us to be born again, so are you saying unbelief causes God to cause us to be un-born again? Note that the actual opposite of John 1:12-13 would be if we do not receive Christ, then we would not be given the right to become children of God. Hence, an unbeliever would not be spiritually born again.

    Galatians 5:4 refers to those who have been led astray, the false teacher has severed them from the truth, which is Christ's gospel, hence severed from Christ. They have fallen away from the gospel that says we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works of the Law. This issue is not loss of salvation, for those born again, but obedience to the truth, verse 7. Paul had confidence that those "in the Lord" will adopt no other view. Thus false doctrine, rather than salvation is the topic.

    1 Peter 1:3-5 says that when God causes us to be born again, He protects us by His power such that we receive the inheritance reserved in heaven for us. To say we could become "un-born again" is to nullify this passage.
     
  13. Van

    Van Contributor

    +107
    Christian
    The Prodigal Son, Luke 15:11-32, is the last of three related parables, the "Lost Sheep", the "Lost Coin" and the "Lost Son." The word "prodigal" refers to extravagance, whether in a good sense, i.e generous to a fault, on in a bad sense, wasteful.

    In the first parable, Jesus explains that the idea is there is more joy in heaven over one who repents, than over 99 who need no repentance. Thus it is not extravagant to seek the lost because that brings joy in heaven.

    In the parable of the lost coin, a person expends great effort cleaning her house to find a lost coin, and when she finally finds it, she celebrates with friends. Jesus explains that there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. So again, it is not extravagant to seek the lost because that brings joy in heaven.

    When we become a Christian, a babe in Christ, we begin a journey to become like our Father. We must grow and repent from our fleshly attitudes and attributes. In the parable of the Lost Son, one son is wasteful and spends his inheritance and then "comes to his senses" and repents and returns to his father who is overcome with joy.
    The other brother sees his dad as wasteful and extravagant because his father kills the fatted calf. So the other brother has not become like his dad, and needs to repent, and stop thinking he has earned God's grace, or God should not bestow His grace upon folks who have squandered what God had given them.

    All of us should become like our Father, giving extravagantly to those who were dead but now are alive in Christ. We are to be "Prodigal Sons" spending our life seeking the lost! God Bless
     
  14. Ormly

    Ormly Senior Veteran

    +87
    Christian
    Now that you have that out of your system, what is your answer?
     
  15. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes!

    +962
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution
    As can be seen, Ben johnson spends much more time trying to argue how men can "lose" their salvation (if that were possible) than how to gain it. Seems to me that the focus there is 180 degrees opposite of what it should be. That calls into question his entire doctrinal construct.
     
  16. Van

    Van Contributor

    +107
    Christian
    Ormly, I provided the answer to the question, what would have happen if the son had died before he repented. Since you claim I did not, I cannot communicate with you. (those who were dead...)
     
  17. Ormly

    Ormly Senior Veteran

    +87
    Christian

    You didn't provide an answer but your explanation of three parables I didn't ask for that do not address the question.


    Here's the question again: "What would have happened to the prodical had he died before "he chose" to go home? What would he have missed out on?"
     
  18. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

    +33
    Calvinist
    He could not have died before His restoration, God was in control of when he would die..
     
  19. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

    +33
    Calvinist
    I never saw these parabes corrupted like you have done..
     
  20. Van

    Van Contributor

    +107
    Christian
    Ormly, since you claim I did not answer the question, when I did, we have nothing left to discuss.

    Folks, people die in unbelief, therefore it is urgent that we plant the gospel in the soils of mankind and then water and cultivate so that we might be useful instruments of God. And in order to be useful instruments, we must guard ourselves again various ways we can become ineffective through sin and false doctrine.
     
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