Great Flood Evidence?

[RickG]

Question...was there enough water? Here is the hypsographic curve of the planet earth.
Answer...As you see...if you had a big enough bulldozer you could push all the dry land into the ocean.

View attachment 166916

Question....If the earth was smooth, how deep would the water be?
Answer....2.7 km, which is 1.68 miles.

Conclusion, there was plenty of water for the World Wide Flood of Noah.

Oh? Then why do we have up to 12 miles thick of sediments on the continental shelves? I think you are quite a bit short on water.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/sedthick/sedthick.html

 

[-57]

The uniformitarian, old earthers, flood didn't happen sect....don't seem to understand polystrate trees.

They tell us it takes millions and milllions of years for the sediment to deposit and accumulate.
Guess what? Hard evidence shows otherwise.
If it took millions of years...the trees wouls have rotted. The sediment would not accumulate around the trees unless it was rapid....like the flood of Noah suggest.

 

[-57]

Oh? Then why do we have up to 12 miles thick of sediments on the continental shelves? I think you are quite a bit short on water.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/sedthick/sedthick.html

Are you actually questioning the hypsographic curve? Really?
Are you actually claiming if the earth was smooth...it wouldn't be covered with water?

Do you dent these FACTS?

 

[JackRT]

I would suggest the 8200 yr event causing a sea level rise 0.8 to 2.2 m, as a possible origin for the flood story.

http://www.tulane.edu/~tor/documents/EPSL2012.pdf

There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 25 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 5600 BC due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.

 

[029b10]

Question...was there enough water?

Question....If the earth was smooth, how deep would the water be?
Answer....2.7 km, which is 1.68 miles.

Conclusion, there was plenty of water for the World Wide Flood of Noah.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form and void . And darkness was was upon the face of the deep.

How can it be surmised that the earth was a sphere without any surface features: Isaiah 53:2
"...he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

How can it be surmised that the entire earth was covered under a deluge of waters: Genesis 1:9
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

How can it be surmised that the waters that covered the entire earth were frozen: Job 38:30
"The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen."

How can we surmise that their could not have been a flood of waters? Genesis 9:14
And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
And how can we surmise that the bow was the arch of the atmosphere Gen 9:16
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

While the appearance of the color spectrum is produced by the refraction of visible light,refracted light continues to travels in a straight line according to the angle it is refracted. The multicolored arch is is produced by the curvature of the atmosphere.

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

 

[-57]

The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible.

Can you show this statement to be fact? I have to ask because you posted it as if it was a fact.
How do you know the Noah account didn't inspire the Gilgamesh story?

 

[AV1611VET]

May I ask were you studied sedimentology and petrology?

Who says sedimentology and petrology had anything to do with the White Cliffs of Dover?

All it took was a big broom in God's hands.

 

[-57]

How can it be surmised that the earth was a sphere without any surface features: Isaiah 53:2
"...he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

How can it be surmised that the waters that covered the entire earth were frozen: Job 38:30
"The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen."

How can you surmise that these verses are talking about the creation?

 

[lasthero]

View attachment 166920 The uniformitarian, old earthers, flood didn't happen sect....don't seem to understand polystrate trees.

They tell us it takes millions and milllions of years for the sediment to deposit and accumulate.

No one says that all layers in all instances had to be laid down in long amounts of times. Some layers can be lain down rather quickly, such as in places like swamps or during flooding events.

Here's a question - have any of these polystrate trees your talking about ever been found going through a layer that was dated as millions of years old?

 

[-57]

No one says that all layers in all instances had to be laid down in long amounts of times. Some layers can be lain down rather quickly, such as in places like swamps or during flooding events.

Here's a question - have any of these polystrate trees your talking about ever been found going through a layer that was dated as millions of years old?

Not quite sure I understand your question or what you're trying to defend...but there is the Lamar River Formation that Old Earth scientist say began 66 MY ago and ended 23.03 MY ago.
Part of this formation is called Specimen Ridge. Are you familiar with it?

 

[029b10]

How can you surmise that these verses are talking about the creation?

The entire Bible teaches about the beginning. Regarding form, it merely passage referenced the fact that the earth had no distinguishing surface features since it was covered under water, not that it wasn't a sphere but rather liken to the passage in Isaiah said that the individual had no form didn't mean he didn't have body and shape, merely that there was nothing distinguishable about his form. You can use Enceladus as a model for what the earth appeared like in Genesis 1:2 except there was no visible light at the time so it aboded in the darkness of space.

As far as the deep being the waters that covered the earth.

Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.
Ps 69:14
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.
Ps 69:15
Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures?
and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
Ezek 34:18
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Ps 104:6

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

I've go to ask about John Baumgardner, how does a person with a PhD in Geophysics come up with "Catastrophic Plate Dynamics"? He essentially has to ignore everything he learned in obtaining that degree. And of course, if he truly feels it is valid, why has he not submitted it for publication in the mainstream scientific literature?

John converted to YEC first as an engineering student. Years later, he pursued a doctorate in geophysics which he received from UCLA in 1983. He describes that his motivation for graduate study was focused on Noah's flood, "Back in 1978 I felt strongly led to go back to graduate school and get professional credentials to work on the problem of what happened to the Earth in the flood." Unlike the majority of science students, Baumgardner's interest in a science career was not related to discovering true facts about nature. In his own words, "I would say my primary goal in my scientific career is a defense of God's Word, plain and simple." ( http://www.rae.org/believe.html accessed 12, April 2004).

I review several of his lamer assertions in "Ancient Molecules and Modern Myths"

 

[AV1611VET]

Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.
Ps 69:14
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.
Ps 69:15
Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures?
and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
Ezek 34:18
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Ps 104:6

Nice poetry there.

You even included a passage from one of the major prophets.

How about some history now?

 

[LloydK]

Collaboration
I thank 57 and others for helpful contributions to this thread. I hope some of you may like to collaborate on this online, and therefore may like to fill out a short questionnaire at http://goo.gl/forms/DA89bsQYmr. I don't know how to contact anyone here, other than via these posts. If I click on "Start a Conversation" under anyone's avatar, I get a message saying I don't have permission. Is it because I'm not a paying member of the forum?

I asked in the OP only for evidence in favor of the Great Flood, since I'm already familiar with a lot of the usual evidence against it. But I guess it doesn't hurt to post evidence against, since that leads to bringing out more evidence in favor.

Great Flood plus Rapid Continental Drift
I'm not a Creationist, in the sense of believing that the Bible is inerrant or that Earth was created 6,000 years ago or so. But it appears to me that Earth's surface was radically changed almost 4,400 years ago mostly be the Great Flood tsunamis and continental drift. Mike Fischer's version of continental drift appears to be much more realistic than John Baumgardner's, because there does not seem to be actual subduction into the mantle, but only overriding of one plate over another. Fischer explains that in considerable detail at http://newgeology.us and so does Charles Chandler at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=4741-4752-5653-5660-6031-6199-9981.

A friend of mine teaches high school geology and he says the Bible mentions that "matar" fell during the Flood. He says "matar" is Hebrew for meteors, which is in agreement with Fischer's Shock Dynamics model, saying that rapid continental drift was caused by a large asteroid impact which left a 500 mile diameter crater off east Africa. My teacher friend says impacts occurred throughout the Flood event, as they're found in nearly all of the strata. I found a list of craters online and it confirmed that.

Ice Age Problem
The Ice Age appears to have started at the beginning of the Flood and lasted a few centuries, but there seem to be some contradictions. Like why did the Arctic animals freeze instead of being fossilized in rock strata? Why weren't they buried under Flood sediments like most other plants and animals were? I heard that some dinosaur bones in the Liscomb bone bed on Alaska's north slope were frozen instead of fossilized, while the rest were fossilized. I'd like to understand how there was some fossilization and in other cases in the same area freezing instead of fossilization.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Not quite sure I understand your question or what you're trying to defend...but there is the Lamar River Formation that Old Earth scientist say began 66 MY ago and ended 23.03 MY ago.
Part of this formation is called Specimen Ridge. Are you familiar with it?

(emphasis mine)

Wow...I definitely need a reference for that bolded bit.

"Based on radiometric dates and plant fossils from it, the Lamar River Formation is considered to be of Middle Eocene age"

The whole mid-Eocene would've been about 38 to 41 million years ago.

Also, no geologist is saying that catastrophic things never happen. The Lamar River Formation was largely created by a series of catastrophic lahar mud flows from nearby volcanoes. Some of these thick deposits probably formed in hours or days.

 

[-57]

Ice Age Problem
The Ice Age appears to have started at the beginning of the Flood and lasted a few centuries, but there seem to be some contradictions. Like why did the Arctic animals freeze instead of being fossilized in rock strata? Why weren't they buried under Flood sediments like most other plants and animals were? I heard that some dinosaur bones in the Liscomb bone bed on Alaska's north slope were frozen instead of fossilized, while the rest were fossilized. I'd like to understand how there was some fossilization and in other cases in the same area freezing instead of fossilization.

The animals...woolly mammoths is suppose you're talking about...were post flood.

Creation scientist Michael Oard presents a convincing explanation for the mammoth’s extinction.5 In the creation model, conditions would have been ripe for the Ice Age quickly following the Genesis Flood. Large amounts of volcanic activity during the Flood, as well as the potentially warm waters coming from the “fountains of the great deep” (Genesis 7:11), would have resulted in much warmer post-Flood oceans, perhaps by tens of degrees Celsius. Even the Arctic Ocean would have been ice-free shortly after the Flood, and this is the key to explaining how wooly mammoths could have once lived in these Arctic regions—warm, moist air flowing from the Arctic and Pacific oceans onto the land would have provided the milder climate needed to support the vegetation that sustained the mammoths.

As the oceans gradually cooled, Arctic sea ice would have eventually formed, resulting in a much colder and drier climate. Colder temperatures in the Arctic regions would have produced dramatic temperature differences between high and low latitudes, resulting in very strong winds. These winds would have carried enormous amounts of silt through the atmosphere, not unlike the 1930s Dust Bowl in the Midwestern United States. This combination of a very cold, dry climate and windblown silt would have overcome the slow-moving mammoths, explaining the large number of mammoth bones found in “yedomas” or “edomas”—hills containing large amounts of ice and loess (windblown silt). Although it has long been popular to attribute the wooly mammoth extinction to some kind of a “quick freeze” in which temperatures quickly dropped to below -150°F, Oard presents a much more plausible and compelling explanation for the mammoth’s disappearance.6 Go here for the full article.

 

[-57]

(emphasis mine)

Wow...I definitely need a reference for that bolded bit.

"Based on radiometric dates and plant fossils from it, the Lamar River Formation is considered to be of Middle Eocene age"

The whole mid-Eocene would've been about 38 to 41 million years ago.

Also, no geologist is saying that catastrophic things never happen. The Lamar River Formation was largely created by a series of catastrophic lahar mud flows from nearby volcanoes. Some of these thick deposits probably formed in hours or days.

The age date came from this wiki article on Paleogene.

Lamar River Formation is the formation inwhich the Specimen Ridge is part of. The wiki article says the formation is paleocene.(old earth time)

 

[lasthero]

Not quite sure I understand your question or what you're trying to defend...

You're saying that scientists claim that layers can only form in millions of years - this isn't true. In certain circumstances, they can form rather quickly, and they're able to recognize when this is the case.

Have you ever had an instance where scientists had a tree shooting through millions of years of sediment, in layers they believe to be made in millions of years?

 

[-57]

You're saying that scientists claim that layers can only form in millions of years - this isn't true. In certain circumstances, they can form rather quickly, and they're able to recognize when this is the case.

Have you ever had an instance where scientists had a tree shooting through millions of years of sediment, in layers they believe to be made in millions of years?

That would be foolish of them....considering they know the tree would not last. That's the point of the argument. RAPID BURIAL just as the flood model suggest.

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is just for discussion, not debate, at this time.

I just want to see all of the evidence for the Great Flood.

If you'd like to collaborate on this online, here's a short questionnaire: http://goo.gl/forms/DA89bsQYmr

I like this video on continental drift: youtube.com/watch?v=_IIE8UnvPUg

And this paper on the Great Flood: socalsem.edu/2015/08/09/noahs-flood-the-key-to-correct-interpretation-of-earth-history/

If we are looking for a flood in the Tigris - Euphrates river valley then just about anywhere you look your going to find evidence of a flood. The problem is going to be getting the time line where we need it for Noah's flood. One example is Underwater archaeologist Robert Ballard work in Turkey. The problem there is that right now the evidence looks to be more around 7000 bc at the time the glaciers melted. Another place to look is the Ancient City of Ur where Abraham came from according to the Bible. Archaeology does find a flood layer at Ur. Just like every city in that valley has been flooded at one time or another. That is why they call it a flood plain.