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Featured Grafted In

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HARK!, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:40 PM.

  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    [STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

    Jesus IS Israel.

    Jesus fulfills every preparatory and anticipatory aspect of the history of redemption in the Old Testament in general—and in the history of Israel in particular—because He is the true Israel of God.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2020 at 8:41 PM
  2. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes I and most Christians know that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020 at 5:44 PM
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Israel was of the Torah. There is no such command in the Torah. There are such restrictions in Asceticism of which some worship angels, probably fallen angels.

    Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is the most likely.

    There were no such customs in Jerusalem. Colossae is in Southwest Turkey. It's over a 800 mile walk from Jerusalem. There wasn't a strong Jewish presence there, judging the Pagans for eating what Pagans eat, nor drinking what Pagans drink, nor for observing their Pagan holidays.

    The town was known for its fusion of religious influences (syncretism), which included Jewish, Gnostic, and pagan influences that in the first century AD were described as an angel-cult.[16]

    It is believed that one aim of the letter was to address the challenges that the Colossian community faced in its context of the syncretistic Gnostic religions that were developing in Asia Minor.[16]
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    SHABBAT SHALOM!
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Eph 2:12
    that you were, (Past tense. Not anymore.) in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, (One in the same.) and guests of the promise covenants, (No longer guests. Now Citizens of Israel!) having no expectation, and without God in the world.
     
  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    He was speaking to the nation of Hebrews whom he had rescued from Egypt.
    There was no church.

    Sons of Israel; exactly.
    I'm a child of God, not Israel.

    Grafted in to the Jewish religion; yes.
    I am not Jewish.

    So your argument is that Christians have now been "grafted in" to Israel in Christ, so we have to go back to the OT, read all the laws about how Israelites are supposed to live, and we are obliged to keep them all because we are Israelites?

    Even Jews don't keep all the laws that were given to Moses.
    They offer no animal sacrifices, in later years, all the feasts were kept at the temple, and they have no temple.

    Jesus is the true vine, John 15:1, and we are the branches. We have been grafted into Christ. We are to remain in him and then we will bear much fruit. If we believe in Christ and are in him, we are children of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17.
    Jesus never said "believe in me, receive eternal life and then keep the Jewish law".
    Jesus never said that we would only be able to remain in the vine if we kept the law of Moses.
    God never said that if we keep the law, the Spirit will make us his children.
     
  7. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Ecclesia does not mean "church".
    It means a "gathering of those who are summoned". So those who were called by God and led out of Egypt into the promised land, were ecclesia. The ancient Greeks, and no doubt others, also had ecclesia. The early church were ecclesia when they met together in the upper room.

    It seems that you are trying to make a case for the Christian church having been present in the wilderness; it wasn't.
     
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Sounds like a round about way to just ignore what the text is actually saying though.

    The way this has been explained is so transparently eisegetical, it's unconvincing.

    If you wish to win a debate, that's fine - but you haven't convinced me that this is a Christian theology.
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This provides context for what the text is actually saying. If we take it out of context; we can make it mean what is in opposition to to YHWH's word, and the teachings of Yahshua.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Yahshua was commissioned for none but Israel. We must be grafted in.

    (CLV) Mt 15:24
    Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

    (CLV) Hb 8:10
    "For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    ec·cle·sia | \ ə̇ˈklēzēə, eˈ-, -lēzh(ē)ə \
    plural ecclesiae\ -lēz(h)ēˌē , -lāzēˌī \
    Definition of ecclesia
    1 : a political assembly of citizens of ancient Greek states especially : the periodic meeting of the Athenian citizens for conducting public business and for considering affairs proposed by the council
    2 : church sense 4d
    3 : one of the local organizations of the Christadelphians

    Definition of ECCLESIA
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Ac 7:35
    "This Moses, whom they disown, saying, `Who constitutes you a chief and a justice over us?' this one has God commissioned to be a chief as well as a redeemer, a justice, with the hand of the messenger who was seen by him in the thorn bush.

    (CLV) Ac 7:36
    This man led them out, doing miracles and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

    (CLV) Ac 7:37
    This is the Moses who says to the sons of Israel: A Prophet will God be raising up to you from among your brethren, as me.

    (CLV) Ac 7:38
    This is he who came to be in the ecclesia in the wilderness with the messenger, who speaks to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who receives the living oracles to give to you,
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    YHWH was not speaking to the Jewish religion. He speaks to Israel.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Go back? Do you mean come to?

    (CLV) Mt 24:35
    Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by.

    We are to come to the word of Yahshua. Yahshua's words are YHWH's words.
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Mt 7:21
    "Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.

    (CLV) Mt 7:22
    Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

    (CLV) Mt 7:23
    And then shall I be avowing to them that 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'
     
  16. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    One scripture does not define our relationship with and to God as our father.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    That;s a strawman argument.

    Obedience to YHWH is the fruit of faith. Abraham is a prime example.

    (CLV) Ja 2:14
    What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

    (CLV) Ja 2:17
    Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

    (CLV) Ja 2:18
    But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

    (CLV) Ja 2:21
    Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

    (CLV) Ja 2:22
    You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

    (CLV) Ja 2:23
    And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

    (CLV) Ja 2:24
    You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

    (CLV) Ja 2:26
    For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.
     
  18. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    What specific law (of the Mosaic) are these he is speaking about breaking?
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I believe that all scripture is true; and applicable to our lives today.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Mt 5:19
    "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

    (CLV) Mt 5:20
    For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness (keeping the law) should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
     
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