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Featured Grafted In

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HARK!, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Has spoken?

    I'm not sure how the translator came to that conclusion, in absence of a prefix on the word deber (דבר)

    ח וַיַּעֲנוּ כָל-הָעָם יַחְדָּו וַיֹּאמְרוּ, כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר יְהוָה נַעֲשֶׂה; וַיָּשֶׁב מֹשֶׁה אֶת-דִּבְרֵי הָעָם, אֶל-יְהוָה.

    Can you explain that?

    Here is a literal translation:

    (CLV) Ex 19:8
    Now all the people responded together and said: All that Yahweh speaks we shall do. When Moses brought back the words of the people to Yahweh,
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Did Paul say that before, or after, he circumcised Timothy?

    1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    (CLV) Ro 2:25
    For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

    Why was Paul telling his disciples to keep Pesach?

    “Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor. 5:8

    Surely he wasn't teaching his disciples to break Torah?

    (CLV) Ac 28:23
    Now setting a day for him, more came to him in the lodging, to whom he expounded, certifying to the kingdom of God, besides persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and the prophets, from morning till dusk.

    (CLV) Ro 3:31
    Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

    (CLV) 1Co 11:1
    Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
     
  3. kiwimac

    kiwimac Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian Supporter

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    No, God was not speaking to the Church. These signs were given solely for the House of Israel, they are not for the Church.
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This was already covered in post #3:

    (CLV) Ac 7:35
    "This Moses, whom they disown, saying, `Who constitutes you a chief and a justice over us?' this one has God commissioned to be a chief as well as a redeemer, a justice, with the hand of the messenger who was seen by him in the thorn bush.

    (CLV) Ac 7:36
    This man led them out, doing miracles and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

    (CLV) Ac 7:37
    This is the Moses who says to the sons of Israel: A Prophet will God be raising up to you from among your brethren, as me.

    (CLV) Ac 7:38
    This is he who came to be in the ecclesia in the wilderness with the messenger, who speaks to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who receives the living oracles to give to you,

    (CLV) Ac 7:39
    to whom our fathers are not willing to become obedient, but they thrust him away, and turned to Egypt in their hearts,
     
  5. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    I know the scripture...again WHAT is your point?
     
  6. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    Thats the old covenant.

    I will also add that you are required not to judge others. If you feel called to follow the old covenant I have no issue with that, but what I will say is that someone who feels called to do that shouldnt judge those that feel free to follow the new covenant. However, both sides need to be careful not to call a brother to stumble.
     
  7. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    Grafting is an (horticultural) analogy intended for those who were listening ...

    To be born of God is not being grafted in nor is it being adopted (as to what this had meant in the then present culture).
     
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Israel was grafted out of the tree of life, Christ. The Gentiles were grafted into the root of the olive tree which is Christ Himself.

    Gentiles were only 'brought near', not into the nation of Israel. Theocratic Israel has not existed for two thousand years. If you think that there will be theocratic Israel ever again, then keep dreaming.

    The law and the temple were only the shadows, and all is the full reality of the Christ now. Israel has long gone and has also the relevance of the law.

    We are under grace and not under the law. Circumcision was the letter of the law and that letter passed.
     
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  9. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

    Not sure why this is not in the Sabbath and the Law Subforum, but this passage came to mind. Thus not letting you judge me based on old requirements.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Are not the branches nourished by the root, in a single tree?

    (CLV) Ro 11:17
    Now if some (not all) of the boughs are broken out, yet you, being a wild olive, are grafted among them, and became joint participant of the root and fatness of the olive,

    Paul said that it was the wild branches were hewn out; and that the wild branches were grafted into the cultivated tree.

    (CLV) Ro 11:24
    For if you were hewn out of an olive wild by nature, and, beside nature, are grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much rather shall these, who are in accord with nature, be grafted into their own olive tree!
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    His covenant is with Israel.

    (CLV) Hb 8:10
    "For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

    His Kingdom will come. It's just a matter of time.

    (CLV) Ac 1:6
    Those, indeed, then, who are coming together, asked Him, saying, "Lord, if art Thou at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

    (CLV) Ac 1:7
    Yet He said to them, "Not yours is it to know times or eras which the Father placed in His own jurisdiction.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    That's not what scripture says.I believe that the verse you are referring to is when when Paul is telling his disciples at Colossae, ot to let the Pagans and Ascetics judge them as they kept his Sabbaths and Feasts.

    Paul would not tell his disciples to ignore the Feasts which are a shadow of the reality of Messiah. Paul kept the feasts; and taught his disciples to keep them as well. This was already covered in post #43.

    (CLV) Ro 3:31
    Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

    (CLV) Mt 5:18
    For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Paul makes the judgements of those who were practicing of Paganism and Asceticism in Colossae crystal clear in these verses:

    (CLV) Col 2:8
    Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ,

    Human tradition! Paul is not talking about abandoning YHWH's eternal Moedim, as outlined in his word.

    (CLV) Col 2:20
    If, then, you died together with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to decrees:

    Elements of the world! Paul is not talking about YHWH's kadosh Torah. The Torah is spiritual.

    Why are you subject to decrees? The Greek word here is "dogma," man made worldly human dogma. He's not telling his disciples to ignore YHWH's word.

    (CLV) Col 2:21
    "You should not be touching, nor yet tasting, nor yet coming into contact,"

    Asceticism!

    (CLV) Col 2:22
    (which things are all for corruption from use), in accord with the directions and teachings of men?

    In contradiction to YHWH's word, to honor his Moedim and Shabbats forever!
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    What is the old covenant?

    (CLV) Ec 1:9
    What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun.
     
  15. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Member

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    I've read some opposing views/opinions in this thread, I'll add one more:

    Commonwealth of Israel - Physical & Spiritual

    Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    (NOTE: Ephesians is written to NT saints/believers, those spiritually indwelt/sealed via Christ's Holy Spirit. (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14, 4:30, 2 Tim 1:14)

    Eph 2:
    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    (NOTE: Belief/faith in Christ has quickened = made you SPIRITUALLY alive.)

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
    (NOTE: Before you believed, said or did anything, Christ paid your sin debt & was raised for your justification (Rom 4:25). Belief/faith in Christ's sin payment & resurrection quickened/made you SPIRITUALLY alive)

    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    NOTE: (Unlike the 1st physical circumcision covenant, preformed with hands. This spiritual circumcision/covenant is preformed SPIRITUALLY by Christ, without hands. Also see Matt 3:11, Deut 30:6 (A) & Rom 2:29)

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    (NOTE: ALL gentile's were aliens from PHYSICAL Israel. Strangers living outside God's covenants of promise, having no hope, living without God)

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    (NOTE: BUT NOW! these gentiles who WERE aliens & strangers lost/without hope from covenants of promise. Thru FAITH in Christ's sin payment & resurrection have been quickened/made SPIRITUALLY alive, grafted in, SPITITUALLY sealed by Christ, with His indwelling Holy Spirit. Are now part of the true SPIRITUAL Israel)

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    (NOTE: In the Temple stood a partition wall. No gentile could go beyond this dividing wall, where Torah was read)

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    (NOTE: One new SPIRITUAL man via Christ's baptism with His indwelling Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11). This gift is given to whoever believes/places their faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection. This new covenant, SPIRITUALLY written in our/twain/both (believing Jew or Gentile) heart (2 Cor 3:2-3, Heb 8:10) & advocated by our/twain/both High Priest/Christ (Heb 4:14, 1 Jn 2:1-2) after the order of Melchizedek, (Heb 5:6, 6:20, 7:15) whether Jew or Gentile (Rom 1:16, Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28, Col 3:11)

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    (NOTE: Believers are reconciled unto God via belief/placing their faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection)

    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    (NOTE: Reconciliation is by grace thru faith & SPIRITUALLY accessed (Rom 5:1-2, Eph 2:8) whether Jew or Gentile)

    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    (NOTE: Once Christ baptizes with His indwelling Holy Spirit. You become a citizen of God's house/Israel. Also see Phil 3:20)

    Throughout scripture two kingdoms/houses: physical & spiritual are revealed.

    Cain physical, Abel spiritual
    Ishmael physical, Isaac spiritual (See Gal 4:22-31)
    Esau physical, Jacob spiritual
    Israel physical, Body of Christ/Church spiritual
    Adam physical, Christ Spiritual (1 Cor 15:45)

    The NT post Acts 2:4 SPIRITUAL Israel which ALL believer's Gentile or Jew are grafted (a covenant circumcision of the heart preformed SPIRITUALLY without hands) via Christ's baptism with His indwelling Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020 at 4:32 PM
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  16. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    The garden scenario begins again in Christ.
     
  17. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry but He was speaking to Israel and the foreigners dwelling in their land. It doesn't roll over to the church!

    The church is one body in Christ but not because of the passage you cited!

    This was for keeping the Torah in the land!
     
  18. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Um, you better read that again. Paul would disagree with you. Do you not understand how grafts work? Why do you need grace then? Sin is the transgression of the law.
     
  19. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Interesting thesis, but this was against Judaizers like in Galatia. Paul everywhere he went was hounded by Judaizers.

    Thus all taste not, touch not, handle not commandments from the law are just principles of the world and have no value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    Paul is asking if you are dead to the world, then why are you subject to rules as if you were not?

    upload_2020-11-20_16-12-11.png upload_2020-11-20_16-12-11.png
     
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    SHABBAT SHALOM!
     
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