Grace and works illustrated.

[Dave L]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

 

[Arc F1]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

I see works more as being a good Samaritan and running in to save them. Putting others welfare above your own.

Works are required even though they don't give you extra credit.

 

[Dave L]

I see works more as being a good Samaritan and running in to save them. Putting others welfare above your own.

Works are required even though they don't give you extra credit.

I agree. But the point is, grace actually saves. Works dumps it off on the individual to save themselves, which means they remain lost and deceived.

 

[Arc F1]

I agree. But the point is, grace actually saves. Works dumps it off on the individual to save themselves, which means they remain lost and deceived.

Why can't you have both?

 

[Dave L]

Why can't you have both?

How can lifeless people save themselves through works?

 

[Arc F1]

How can lifeless people save themselves through works?

They can't. Works do not count for anything. They are however required for the faithful. We are all supposed to help those in need.

 

[Francis Drake]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

Your error is in presuming the Holy Spirit cannot speak to all people, not just the saints.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that all men have heard what is needful in responding to God. And their refusal to countenance God's conviction will be their responsibility alone.

In other words, when it comes to the Holy Spirit, all those in your house fire, are perfectly able to grasp the escape line God has offered.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
To suppress the truth, you must first know that truth!

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
And there it is, God has made his truth manifest in them!

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Even in the most hardened atheist, the invisible nature of God is clearly seen and known, including his power and Godhead.
If that were not true, then at the judgement, men would have an excuse!

Your fancy parable is nonsense.

 

[Rachel20]

Exactly what kind of works could I do of the nature that I could take credit? If I use my hands, they're from God. Or my feet, mind, my very being. So I'm curious how those who believe in works would answer this.

 

[bling]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

The huge difference with God, is that God can just as easily and safely rescue everyone. so if like a fireman who could just as easily and safely save everyone, but chose to only save some would be condemned by everyone, God should be condemned for the same reason if this fits His scenario, which it does not.

 

[Francis Drake]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

You have created a completely fake scenario.
In real life or death situations, invading private property is always excusable in law.

It would be closer to life for your rescuers to go in and shake people awake, then find some will tell them to go to hell, whereas other grasp eagerly at the offer of rescue.
ie. Romans1 makes it abundantly clear that salvation is down to our freewill acceptance of God's offer of rescue. (As shown in post No7),

Why does God give grace to the humble not the proud? For the simple reason that the proud always reject God's intervention.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your error is in presuming the Holy Spirit cannot speak to all people, not just the saints.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that all men have heard what is needful in responding to God. And their refusal to countenance God's conviction will be their responsibility alone.

In other words, when it comes to the Holy Spirit, all those in your house fire, are perfectly able to grasp the escape line God has offered.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
To suppress the truth, you must first know that truth!

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
And there it is, God has made his truth manifest in them!

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Even in the most hardened atheist, the invisible nature of God is clearly seen and known, including his power and Godhead.
If that were not true, then at the judgement, men would have an excuse!

Your fancy parable is nonsense.

I don't see where Dave L said the Holy Spirit cannot speak to all people...

 

[Francis Drake]

I don't see where Dave L said the Holy Spirit cannot speak to all people...

Go read the OP.
@Dave L describes the unbelievers as totally unconscious, ie. not able to hear the voice of God
But he also regularly claims God only speaks through reading the bible. ie. Until you know the bible, or are reading it, you can't hear God.

In this world, any father would be called abusive, absent, or dysfunctional if he refused to speak to his children from birth to death! And leaving an instruction book is not the same as talking like a loving father would.
In such a case, the local Children's Services would most likely remove his children and foster them out to a family that actually showed love.

 

[Dan Perez]

Exactly what kind of works could I do of the nature that I could take credit? If I use my hands, they're from God. Or my feet, mind, my very being. So I'm curious how those who believe in works would answer this.

Hi and WORKS were done many times in the OT !!

Take for example Abraham in James in 2:21 Was not Abraham by WORKS , when he offered Isacc his son upon the alter ?

James has many verse on WORKS , verse 21-26 !!

dsn p

 

[Fervent]

You left out the part where the firefighters knocked everyone out, put them in the building, set it on fire, and then tied down the ones they chose not to save to make sure only those who they decided to save were saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

describes the unbelievers as totally unconscious, ie. not able to hear the voice of God

You will, I hope, admit his analogy is not completely translatable to theology. The point is NOT that God can't make himself known to those dead in their sin, but that they can't on their own listen to him, nor respond positively, except those in whom the Spirit of God has taken up residence. Even those who reject him, and those who merely comply with what he commands but without submission, who hear the Word of God much the same as they see what his hands have made, are dead in their considerations of it, lacking the work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts and minds.

In this world, any father would be called abusive, absent, or dysfunctional if he refused to speak to his children from birth to death! And leaving an instruction book is not the same as talking like a loving father would.
In such a case, the local Children's Services would most likely remove his children and foster them out to a family that actually showed love.

You will, I hope, admit your analogy does not translate well to theology either. We are not God, nor is God like us who own nobody, created nobody, have no eternal plan nor reason for the creation. How we treat each other, or should, is no reference by which he should abide.

I won't go so far as to say that we are not all children of God, but there are references as to the particular Children of God, adopted according to his plan. The rest are not that kind of children of God.

He is not our peer --he is our Creator. He gives life and he takes life, and nobody can advise him on the matter, and if people choose to oppose him and claim their own self-determination, they will bear the consequences.

Who are you, Oh man? --Romans 9

 

[Soyeong]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. In Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so again obedience itself is the content of God's free gift, not something that we need to do in order to try to save ourselves.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. In Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so again obedience itself is the content of God's free gift, not something that we need to do in order to try to save ourselves.

I can't tell if you are agreeing or trying to disagree with what Dave L posted. I don't see anything he said as disagreement with the principles you talk about there. However, he was specifically referring to those, dead in sin, and what it takes to make them alive --not about the subsequent work(s) of grace. (Yes, in my view, they too are of the same kind --it is all the work of God, and so, we work.)

 

[Soyeong]

Works; A building is on fire. All are unconscious. A voice comes over the PA. If you crawl on the floor, there will be less smoke since heat rises. We cannot legally come in to rescue anyone without their permission. So if any hear this voice, crawl as fast as you can and find an exit. There’s plenty of fresh air out here and the Red Cross has coffee and donuts.

Grace; A building is on fire, all are unconscious. A team of Fire Fighters with oxygen advance through the smoke grabbing as many as possible, dragging and carrying them to safety. Where they resuscitate and care for the victims.

I can't tell if you are agreeing or trying to disagree with what Dave L posted. I don't see anything he said as disagreement with the principles you talk about there. However, he was specifically referring to those, dead in sin, and what it takes to make them alive --not about the subsequent work(s) of grace. (Yes, in my view, they too are of the same kind --it is all the work of God, and so, we work.)

Sorry, I should have calefied that. Someone can be motived to do something for the good of someone else, such as earning a wage where what they receive is what is owed to them, which is incompatible with receiving a free gift, so there are instances where doing works is incompatible with grace, such as Romans 11:6. However, someone can be motivated to do something that is for their own good, such as attending attending a Toastmasters class where being taught how to give speeches is itself the content of a free gift that was paid for by someone else, which is compatible with grace, such as with Psalms 119:29. God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience to it is not about trying to earn our salvation from God as a wage that is due us (Romans 4:4-5), but rather God teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation. I made the case for that in my previous post, so it is a mistake to that the works that God instructs us to do are opposed to His grace, but rather being trained by grace to follow God's instructions necessarily involves our conscious participation.

 

[Dave L]

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. In Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so again obedience itself is the content of God's free gift, not something that we need to do in order to try to save ourselves.

Scripture teaches you cannot discern saving truth before God saves you. This is salvation by grace. Most think they only need a law to obey so they can save themselves. This is salvation works. So they turn the gospel into law and think God will save them as long as they do their part in obeying it. But law could never save. It only made wicked people act good under the threat of death.

 

[Dave L]

Hi and WORKS were done many times in the OT !!

Take for example Abraham in James in 2:21 Was not Abraham by WORKS , when he offered Isacc his son upon the alter ?

James has many verse on WORKS , verse 21-26 !!

dsn p

Abraham was saved and his works proved it.