Government has ZERO of it's own $'s It CAN NOT CREAT JOBS.

A2SG

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I understand [I think] what you're trying to say, but in point of fact, this statement is not accurate.

Government can create jobs - and has in fact created millions of them.

Government creates jobs however in the same way it "creates" money - by making it. Both are quite easy to do.

What government CANNOT do is turn a profit with those jobs (anymore than it can create wealth by printing more money).

No government job pays for itself. Now, I know there are those here who will take umbrage at that statement and roll forth jobs like police, fire and etc. as valuable and absolutely necessary to the public - but that's not the point.

The point is simply this: it is utterly irrelevant how "valuable" a particular government job is to the truth that government jobs don't pay for themselves. Every government job is funded ultimately by the American taxpayer. Period. No government job pays for itself by generating sufficient revenue to cover the expenses (salary, benefits, etc.) of that job, thereby alleviating [any or all of] the burden of the American taxpayer to fund it.

And the government must tax the American population to support all the jobs it does create.

The follow-on point is obvious: that too many government jobs puts too great a burden on the American populace, which is taxed by the government to pay for them. At some point the balance between what the government spends and what the citizens can afford is undone by the former. That's where we are now - the government continues to spend, and spend, and spend, and spend, to "create jobs" (increasing the size of the government), to borrow, and borrow, and borrow, and tax, and tax, and tax to pay for it's out-of-control largesse.

Governments have been cutting public sector jobs of late, not creating new ones. And that's becoming a severe problem, especially on the local level, where communities don't have enough cops or fire fighters to protect their towns.

And the private sector has been cutting jobs left and right for the last decade or so, which is why we have the problems we have now. The fact is, if the private sector isn't hiring, the public sector needs to, otherwise we'll have no economic growth at all, and the entire system could crumble.

-- A2SG, and that would only benefit the very rich, who can afford to move to a private island and wait it out.....
 
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Originally Posted by A2SG
Yes it does. It comes from tax revenue.



Taxation, in other words. If you don't like paying taxes, move to some other country that doesn't require them. If you can find one.



Every action has consequences. And the government creates millions of jobs that are absolutely necessary, like teachers, police officers and fire fighters. Without them, we'd all be in a mess of trouble.

-- A2SG, necessary and vital jobs the private sector won't be spending any money on, by the way.....
Saying the government has its OWN money is like me saying that MY money is in YOUR wallet.
 
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A2SG

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Saying the government has its OWN money is like me saying that MY money is in YOUR wallet.

It's nevertheless true. Remember, the government is nothing more than we, the people. We have, in this case, pooled our resources in order to use that money for things like teachers, police officers and fire fighters, as well as building roads, public parks and other things we all enjoy.

And we determine how these funds are to be used by electing representatives to act in our stead making those decisions.

-- A2SG, so it actually is OUR money....
 
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It's nevertheless true. Remember, the government is nothing more than we, the people. We have, in this case, pooled our resources in order to use that money for things like teachers, police officers and fire fighters, as well as building roads, public parks and other things we all enjoy.

And we determine how these funds are to be used by electing representatives to act in our stead making those decisions.

-- A2SG, so it actually is OUR money....

Well then I can go get 1.2 trillion when I want to right ?
 
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A2SG

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Well then I can go get 1.2 trillion when I want to right ?

Sure. All you need to do is get your elected representative to allocate the funds and get a majority of congress to go along with it (a super-majority in the Senate, because the Republicans filibuster EVERYTHING these days) and you're good to go!

-- A2SG, good luck!
 
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Sure. All you need to do is get your elected representative to allocate the funds and get a majority of congress to go along with it (a super-majority in the Senate, because the Republicans filibuster EVERYTHING these days) and you're good to go!

-- A2SG, good luck!

No, I think there is a super committee process whereby 12 can override all of congress. So if I get a super committee together and they agree then I guess I get 1.2 trillion.. I will share with you if you want. I imagine I'll share with lots of people eventually. Whooo hooooo.. I am gonna buy so many slurpee's...
 
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A2SG

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No, I think there is a super committee process whereby 12 can override all of congress. So if I get a super committee together and they agree then I guess I get 1.2 trillion.. I will share with you if you want. I imagine I'll share with lots of people eventually. Whooo hooooo.. I am gonna buy so many slurpee's...

Don't count your slurpee's yet, that Supercommittee only deals with deficit reduction, not allocation. You still need to go through your congressman.

-- A2SG, but I will accept the sharing if you're successful...just hedgin' my bets....
 
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Don't count your slurpee's yet, that Supercommittee only deals with deficit reduction, not allocation. You still need to go through your congressman.

-- A2SG, but I will accept the sharing if you're successful...just hedgin' my bets....

Well they can bypass other allocations that total more than 1.2 trillion say 2 trillion and give me 1.2 trillion and that will save .8 trillion.. Whooooo hooooooo, I'll buy everyone a slurpee just give me the $.. 1 day off work and a slurpee to boot. :).. It'll be free slurpee day @ 7-11 on 7-11 ;)
 
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EdwinWillers

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Governments have been cutting public sector jobs of late, not creating new ones. And that's becoming a severe problem, especially on the local level, where communities don't have enough cops or fire fighters to protect their towns.
This is from your article, which supports the point I made quite well (thank you):
"We can't afford the amount of government service that we've been consuming," O'Keefe says. Despite all the layoffs over the past few years, the public sector still has 7 percent more workers than it had at the beginning of 2000. The private sector, on the other hand, has about 1 percent fewer jobs.
...

And the private sector has been cutting jobs left and right for the last decade or so, which is why we have the problems we have now. The fact is, if the private sector isn't hiring, the public sector needs to, otherwise we'll have no economic growth at all, and the entire system could crumble.
Look, think about what you just said. Your premise is that for an economy to be strong, we must be hiring more people. The truth of the matter is that to be hiring more people, we FIRST need a strong economy.

Job growth is NOT the way to stimulate an economy - job growth is the RESULT of a stimulated economy. A healthy economy is the soil in which jobs can grow.

You have it precisely backwards.
 
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A2SG

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This is from your article, which supports the point I made quite well (thank you):...

"We can't afford the amount of government service that we've been consuming," O'Keefe says. Despite all the layoffs over the past few years, the public sector still has 7 percent more workers than it had at the beginning of 2000. The private sector, on the other hand, has about 1 percent fewer jobs.

Look, think about what you just said. Your premise is that for an economy to be strong, we must be hiring more people. The truth of the matter is that to be hiring more people, we FIRST need a strong economy.

Job growth is NOT the way to stimulate an economy - job growth is the RESULT of a stimulated economy. A healthy economy is the soil in which jobs can grow.

You have it precisely backwards.

I agree, and I disagree.

You're correct, the only way we're going to get enough jobs to sustain our economy is by creating a healthy economy first. I understand that. But the question remains: how do we create that healthy economy? It isn't getting healthy on its own, we need to do something, do you agree with that much, at least?

Some have suggested that if we simply cut taxes for the rich, that will solve everything. Well, we did that, and it didn't. In fact, it's been making things worse, because these so-called "job creators" aren't using the money saved from those tax cuts to create jobs. So clearly, we need a different solution.

Obama's plan to create jobs by funding much needed repairs on infrastructure is a good plan, I think. It serves a necessary function (repairing roads, bridges that desperately need repairing) and it puts people to work. That may not solve the problems we have, but it does help. More than doing nothing has.

The idea behind that, and the other things in the jobs plan he proposed (tax breaks for hiring vets, etc.) were designed to help people to do things that will stimulate the economy and help it on the road to being healthy again. We need to do something to help bring about the healthy economy you agree is necessary for wider job growth.

But, I grant you, I'm no economist. If I'm wrong here, perhaps you, or someone, could explain how the Republican plan, doing nothing but giving more and more tax cuts to the rich, works better.

-- A2SG, because we did that, and it didn't work.....
 
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Heard this for the first time today and thought it was pretty right on the money..


YOU CAN'T GET MILK IF THE COW IS DEAD.


Private sector jobs are where the $ comes from for ALL government jobs and goverment programs. The PRIVATE sector has to be healthy for use to ALL get benefit.
 
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A2SG

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Heard this for the first time today and thought it was pretty right on the money..

YOU CAN'T GET MILK IF THE COW IS DEAD.

Private sector jobs are where the $ comes from for ALL government jobs and goverment programs. The PRIVATE sector has to be healthy for use to ALL get benefit.

No one's disputing that. The question is, how do we help it to get healthy?

-- A2SG, we already have a good example of how government can be used to create jobs and help stir the economy back to a healthy one from the 1930s and 1940s.....
 
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No one's disputing that. The question is, how do we help it to get healthy?

-- A2SG, we already have a good example of how government can be used to create jobs and help stir the economy back to a healthy one from the 1930s and 1940s.....

There are some that don't realize that there is even a cow..

Bring back manufacturing, reduce the cost of doing business, reduce the cost of GAS by removing the federal tax on it, Imagine how healthy the economy would be IF gas were $1.00 a gallon again.
 
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A2SG

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There are some that don't realize that there is even a cow..

If the cow's dead, why are we even discussing the economy? Shouldn't we be stockpiling canned goods and living in caves?

Bring back manufacturing,

How? A large portion of US manufacturing goes on overseas because it's cheaper to pay third world workers wages that no American could possibly live on. Are you suggesting we pay American workers what they pay workers in Vietnam?

reduce the cost of doing business,

How? If you're talking about cutting taxes, that's been done and it doesn't work. Many of the largest US corporations pay zero taxes, and in many cases get money back from the government, and they're cutting jobs and outsourcing like nobody's business.

So what other ideas do you have to do this?

reduce the cost of GAS by removing the federal tax on it, Imagine how healthy the economy would be IF gas were $1.00 a gallon again.

That'd be nice...but your suggestion won't even come close to doing that. Federal tax on gas is 18.4 cents a gallon. And, let's not forget, oil companies pay NO TAXES at the federal level, and in fact get BILLIONS back in subsidies, and have been declaring RECORD PROFITS the past decade or so, so there's no reason they need to charge as much as they do. And yet, they do.

So, given how vehemently the Republican party has fought even the slightest reduction in the massive subsidies the oil companies get (let alone even a single cent increase in taxes), and how anemic the Democratic attempts to do it have been, how do you suggest bringing about this utopia of a dollar a gallon?

-- A2SG, by magic? That seems to be the republican plan to fix the economy, after all....
 
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EdwinWillers

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I agree, and I disagree.

You're correct, the only way we're going to get enough jobs to sustain our economy is by creating a healthy economy first. I understand that. But the question remains: how do we create that healthy economy? It isn't getting healthy on its own, we need to do something, do you agree with that much, at least?
Yes, I do agree that we need to do something; and without sounding trite, I think the thing "we" need to be doing (the "we" here being the government) is to get the heck out of the way (to quote - of course, John Galt).

Some have suggested that if we simply cut taxes for the rich, that will solve everything. Well, we did that, and it didn't. In fact, it's been making things worse, because these so-called "job creators" aren't using the money saved from those tax cuts to create jobs. So clearly, we need a different solution.
First off, it's not helpful to merely repeat the slogans of a political party because for one, they're artfully spun to disguise the truth and two - they're wrong. Language like "cutting taxes for the rich" doesn't get us anywhere for the simple reason that it is nothing more than a party slogan and disingenuous at best.

The economics of cutting taxes (for all) is far more complex than a simple irreducible party slogan. But let's stick with the concept of taxes anyway for a second.

A "tax" is something levied by government on individual citizens - you, me, the poor, the rich, private business, corporations, whomever.

A "tax" is a transfer of wealth from a private entity to the government. Money flows from citizens to the government.

Not all taxes are 'bad.' Taxes are in fact important to fund constitutionally legitimate government functions (Article 8, Section 1 of the Constitution lists these for the federal government and the various states and municipalities have their own).

But taxes remain... "taxing" on those on whom they're levied, regardless the amount, so the less "taxed" a person is, the freer they are.

The federal government also imposes (in seeming exponential growth) all manner of mandates and regulations upon private citizens and businesses that, apart and distinct from taxes, cost those entities increasingly enormous sums with which to comply - energy regulations, safety regulations, "green" regulations, environmental regulations, labor regulations, food regulations, health regulations, and etc. and etc. - ad nauseum. For example, Obamacare has already forced businesses into some cases severe cost-cutting measures in preparation for compliance with what will be the single-most expensive and economy-killing legislation our government has ever passed. It's happening right now - and in concert with all the other regulations is having a devasting effect on our economy - which is in large part the WHY those with money aren't hiring, WHY they aren't expanding, WHY they don't have more orders coming in.

People are scared stiff of what's to come next - and understandably so.

Obama's plan to create jobs by funding much needed repairs on infrastructure is a good plan, I think. It serves a necessary function (repairing roads, bridges that desperately need repairing) and it puts people to work. That may not solve the problems we have, but it does help. More than doing nothing has.
It's nothing more than a short-term fix. But in all seriousness - the question you should be asking is why the government isn't ALREADY doing those needed repairs to the infrastructure? We've been paying hundreds of millions in tax dollars on gasoline alone - which monies are [ostensibly] for that purpose alone. WHERE HAS IT GONE?

That raises the other problem with taxes. Taxes (money received from citizens) is too easily spent on "other" things.

The idea behind that, and the other things in the jobs plan he proposed (tax breaks for hiring vets, etc.) were designed to help people to do things that will stimulate the economy and help it on the road to being healthy again. We need to do something to help bring about the healthy economy you agree is necessary for wider job growth.
But think about it for a moment - how is taking money from people (taxes) and then returning a portion of it back to them in any a "stimulus?" If I take $100 from you and then give you back $5, $10, $15 to "stimulate" the economy while I keep $85, $90, $95 of money that once belonged to you - how is that "stimulating" anything?

But, I grant you, I'm no economist. If I'm wrong here, perhaps you, or someone, could explain how the Republican plan, doing nothing but giving more and more tax cuts to the rich, works better.

-- A2SG, because we did that, and it didn't work.....
Well, we barely did anything, if anything at all that really needed to be done - is the first answer. So it's disingenuous of those who dreamed up the "we did that, and it didn't work" mantra to suggest we did anything of the sort. Again, it's a far more complex thing than just easing the tax burden a little here or there on a few here or there for purely political purposes.
 
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A2SG

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Yes, I do agree that we need to do something; and without sounding trite, I think the thing "we" need to be doing (the "we" here being the government) is to get the heck out of the way (to quote - of course, John Galt).

That sounds an awful lot like doing nothing to me.

And, by the way, I've read Ayn Rand too...her solutions won't work in the real world, you realize that, right? I mean really, pretty words aside, Howard Roarke was absolutely and undeniably guilty of malicious destruction of private property for heaven's sake!

First off, it's not helpful to merely repeat the slogans of a political party because for one, they're artfully spun to disguise the truth and two - they're wrong. Language like "cutting taxes for the rich" doesn't get us anywhere for the simple reason that it is nothing more than a party slogan and disingenuous at best.

But it does sum up the entirety of the Republican economic plan. They've offered no other ideas, and have voted down every single suggestion beyond that one.

The federal government also imposes (in seeming exponential growth) all manner of mandates and regulations upon private citizens and businesses that, apart and distinct from taxes, cost those entities increasingly enormous sums with which to comply - energy regulations, safety regulations, "green" regulations, environmental regulations, labor regulations, food regulations, health regulations, and etc. and etc. - ad nauseum.

And for good reason. History, and current events, clearly shows that, left to their own devices and without any form of oversight, the private sector will do anything and everything it can in pursuit of profit, with no regard whatsoever for lives lost or damage to the environment. This fact has been proven, indisputably, time and time again, every time a laissez-faire government resurfaces.

For example, Obamacare has already forced businesses into some cases severe cost-cutting measures in preparation for compliance with what will be the single-most expensive and economy-killing legislation our government has ever passed. It's happening right now - and in concert with all the other regulations is having a devasting effect on our economy - which is in large part the WHY those with money aren't hiring, WHY they aren't expanding, WHY they don't have more orders coming in.

I dispute that, mostly because the decline in American jobs started long before Obama even came into office.

But I will agree the Health Care reform act is woefully inadequate to the problems it only incrementally tries to fix. I blame that on the basis of the plan, which came from a Republican response to much more radical plan Clinton proposed in the 1990s.

It's also why I believe we need something more like single payer in place. If you want to take these costs out of the private sector, there's no better way to do that!

People are scared stiff of what's to come next - and understandably so.

I don't see why. Obama has proven there is no ideal he stands for that he won't cave on or compromise about given Republican pressure. The payroll tax break deal was the only clear win the Obama administration has had, and look at how much opposition that one got!

It's nothing more than a short-term fix.

At least it's something, and that's considerably more than I've heard anyone else suggest.

But in all seriousness - the question you should be asking is why the government isn't ALREADY doing those needed repairs to the infrastructure?

Tax cuts over the past ten years or so, I'd say.

We've been paying hundreds of millions in tax dollars on gasoline alone - which monies are [ostensibly] for that purpose alone. WHERE HAS IT GONE?

Mostly right back to the oil companies, who pay zero taxes and get billions in subsidies. There was an attempt by Democrats to end that, a weak one albeit, but it was quashed by the Republicans and no one's even tried to suggest it again since.

That raises the other problem with taxes. Taxes (money received from citizens) is too easily spent on "other" things.

But think about it for a moment - how is taking money from people (taxes) and then returning a portion of it back to them in any a "stimulus?"

Because it puts money back into the economy. Unemployment, for example, is the most stimulating thing the government can do to the economy: it puts money in the hands of people who not only will spend it (thus stimulating the economy) but have to spend it. Giving tax breaks to rich folks who don't need to spend it doesn't stimulate anything, because they tend to keep it and not spend it.

If I take $100 from you and then give you back $5, $10, $15 to "stimulate" the economy while I keep $85, $90, $95 of money that once belonged to you - how is that "stimulating" anything?

Because that $100 is already gone, even before you see your paycheck. You never had it to begin with.

Well, we barely did anything, if anything at all that really needed to be done - is the first answer. So it's disingenuous of those who dreamed up the "we did that, and it didn't work" mantra to suggest we did anything of the sort. Again, it's a far more complex thing than just easing the tax burden a little here or there on a few here or there for purely political purposes.

You still haven't said...what should we be doing?

-- A2SG, since Reagan, the government has been having a deregulating party and that hasn't exactly created an economic utopia, so, what's next?
 
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Yes, I do agree that we need to do something; and without sounding trite, I think the thing "we" need to be doing (the "we" here being the government) is to get the heck out of the way (to quote - of course, John Galt).

Alright Edwin. Let's say we follow your advice. Starting on the first of next month we'll have the free market how you define it, do away with welfare programs, and lower taxes to the flat rate of 10%

Let's say I'm a full time burger flipper, and just to keep things interesting let's say my co-worker John has a family to support and formerly received aid as the "working poor." What do you see happening to John and I's situation, keeping in mind the 13 million unemployed?

EDIT: Let's also assume the company I work for is profitable enough to not be going under currently.
 
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A2SG

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Alright Edwin. Let's say we follow your advice. Starting on the first of next month we'll have the free market how you define it, do away with welfare programs, and lower taxes to the flat rate of 10%

Let's say I'm a full time burger flipper, and just to keep things interesting let's say my co-worker John has a family to support and formerly received aid as the "working poor." What do you see happening to John and I's situation, keeping in mind the 13 million unemployed?

Are there no workhouses?

-- A2SG, gotta love Dickens.....
 
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stiggywiggy

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Are there no workhouses?


In our country? Not any more.

-- A2SG, gotta love Dickens.....

I do. Especially the fact that it was an individual who came to his senses about the poor, as opposed to the government. Maybe the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future can visit all our Congressmen and show them all the poor in our country and how they should take even more of our money to eliminate their distress.

Then when they finally wake up, they will have compassion with our money. Poor Ebenezer. He was forced to have compassion with his own dough after his epiphany.
 
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No one's disputing that. The question is, how do we help it to get healthy?

-- A2SG, we already have a good example of how government can be used to create jobs and help stir the economy back to a healthy one from the 1930s and 1940s.....

Err...but what does one do with all the weapons?
 
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