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Gospel of John + Clash of religions

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by AbrahamicTheist, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. AbrahamicTheist

    AbrahamicTheist New Member

    (Please excuse my unpolished English :))
    Before I unfold my question, let me introduce my background. I am a living clash between two long lasting lineages of religious backgrounds. From my father's side I have a long genealogy of Muslims (including my father), and from my mother's side I have a long genealogy of Christians whom ended practicing their faith due to Communist ideology that repressed my grandparents' faith in their youth. Their faith has been replaced by left-wing ideology and they still remain sceptical of the Christian hierarchy so naturally, they didn't raise their daughter (my mother) as a Christian. Still, they got many crucifixes and icons in their home...
    My father never pushed Islam on me. Yes, until I was 10 years old I visited a local Sunni Mosque from time to time, but not regularly, and it was more like just for the experience and food. I even used my father as a rocking horse when he was doing prostration sometimes :D
    But now, I am 19 years old, and I see that the Abrahamic religions indeed possesses a large portion of truth. I slowly transformed from the Atheist/I don't care perspective to Abrahamic theist worldview.
    But what is the only salvation-based aspect that differs in these religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)? It's the Law + Jesus. I am trying to study the Bible, but once I find a verse that proves that Jesus can be God, I can with the same ease find a verse that rebukes it. But one book of the Bible that stands out is the Gospel of John. Whenever someone quotes verse about Jesus' divinity, it's most likely from the Gospel of John, which brings the question: Is it even reliable? Why none other Synoptic Gospel is so much "straight to the face" like John is?

    Therefore - 1) Could you provide me with some verses that testify about Jesus' divinity except from the Gospel of John, and the Pauline epistles? From the OT and Synoptic Gospels only, respectively.
    2) And what about the Law? Jesus clearly stated: " For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19 Christians say that the Law has been fulfilled, but has it been though? With the same ease I hear the Christians tellling Jews that he will fulfill the rest of Messianic prophecies after his Second Coming. By that logic, the Law of Moses would be still in place.
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! ... Luke 12:49 Supporter

    United States
    Hello AbrahamicTheist,

    I have a relative who comes from a background similar to yours, and it has in some ways been a challenge to deal with the conflicting views among that person's family members. But, on to your questions:

    To begin with, we can just consider the implications of the first chapter of Matthew. In its overall narrative framework, one reflecting that which Matthew works to illustrate through the rest of his Gospel, Jesus is imputed as having a divine essence. This can be seen as follows:

    Mt 1:1 Jesus (the Christ) … is the Son of David

    Mt 1:18-19 …but Joseph, who is the descendant of David, is not the father of Jesus.

    Mt 1:18-20 An angel of the Lord is the one who delivers a message to Joseph, telling him that the child conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit (and not by the natural way of a man and a woman). [At which point we need to ask: Just whose DNA does Jesus have? It can’t just be that of Mary alone—that’s not how biology works, as we all know. ;)]

    Mt 1:21-23 The child’s earthly name is to be “Jesus,” (akin to Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land), and He will have the power to save “His people” from their sins. [Who can save people from their sins, but God alone?] He also is to be called “Emmanuel”—God with us.

    Mt 1:22-23 Jesus’ miraculous Virgin Birth into the world is a (just one) fulfillment of OT prophetic typology.

    Mt 1:25 Joseph obeys the direction of the Angel, imparting the name of Jesus to the child, and keeping Mary's virginity intact until after Jesus is born.​

    As we can see from chapter one alone, Matthew imputes the essence of the divine nature to Jesus Himself and to His identity. And it is this kind of imputation/fulfillment pattern regarding Jesus' relationship with prophetic typology that we see Matthew use throughout his gospel. This is, of course, a different way to express Jesus’ divinity than that which is shown by John, but it still imputes divinity nevertheless. From this, too, we can see that Jesus can't be simply a prophet; rather, He is imputed to be the Son of God.

    As to your second question, we should be able to see and understand that Matthew 5:18-19 is ensconced within the middle of the imputation/fulfillment pattern that Matthew frequently uses to illustrate Jesus’ purpose and person, a pattern that is barely used by any of the other gospel writers. Thus, in Matthew, Jesus fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law, as well as fulfills the prophetic portions of the OT, so as to inaugurate the presentation of the New Covenant to the world, starting with the people of Israel.

    Does this brief explanation help a little bit? With this pattern recognized in the first chapter of Matthew, you should be able to move onto to each subsequent chapter of Matthew and see some of the same dynamic at work in the structure of the narrative, from beginning to end.

    By the way, welcome to CF!

    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  3. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

    United States
    One of my favorite non John proofs is...

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Php 2:6)

    If you think about it, if Jesus was not God, but thought he was, then he was deluded and not even a prophet (so even the Muslims would be wrong calling him a prophet).

    Then you have from Mark...

    Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion. (Mar 2:7-12)


    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    (Isa 9:6)


    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
    (Psa 45:6)
    coupled with...
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    (Heb 1:8)

    I could go on but it would be in vain if someone is bent on disproving John.
  4. orangeness365

    orangeness365 Well-Known Member

  5. paul1149

    paul1149 that your faith might rest in the power of God Supporter

    United States
    I'll give you a philosophical argument, based on what the Bible teaches.

    Bearing the sin of the world was the dirtiest job in the universe for all time. Adam fell, and with that we lost our hereditary right to fellowship with God and to the Tree of Life. Because God's justice is perfect, sin could not be simply overlooked, but had to be atoned for, and our atonement required not mere animal sacrifices, but the life of a man equal in perfection to Adam.

    Christ Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit, was that man. He was without sin, and therefore, the "last Adam". By his incarnation, death and resurrection He became the new Father of the human race.

    We only needed a perfect man, another Adam. And while we got that, at the same time we also got the Son of God. Why is this?

    The devil's accusation against God in the Garden was that He ruled over creation selfishly, for His own aggrandizement. This lie had to be forever put to rest, or over the course of eternity there would be no end to successive insurrections after the model of satan's.

    There was only one way to lay the accusation to rest. God would demonstrate His love for man by Himself paying for our sins, at the unthinkable price of Him giving His life on our behalf. Had God "farmed out" the job by simply creating a new Adam for the task, the accusation would have remained untouched. But by Jesus himself coming on our behalf, it never can be raised again.

    To my mind, it would be unthinkable that a created being would exist, one who had demonstrated more love than God himself. But as it is, Christ our forerunner has the preeminence in all things, including love, and there is no competition with God, because He is indeed himself God. To Him, every knee will rightly bow.
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

    Eastern Orthodox
    The prophet Daniel was permitted a vision of God in His person of God the Father (Ancient of Days) and God in the person of the Son ( the Son of Man ). See Daniel 7:9-14.

    The Lord Jesus Christ affirms His divinity according to the vision Daniel had in Matthew 26:62-66 as the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. Most of the Sanhedrin called this blasphemy calling for His crucifixion. It is worth taking note that God in the Person of the Holy Spirit testified that the Son as the servant of the Father would suffer this fate in Isaiah 53.

    As far as I know, almost all of the Christian churches say that God in His Person of the Holy Spirit spoke through the Old Testament prophets. At least once God the Son spoke as is clearly evident in Isaiah 48:16. Note from the link that it must be the Son testifying that the Father & Holy Spirit have sent Him. This clearly squares with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 15:26 that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and that the Word of God in John 1:1 is the Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ testifies that the Old Testament points to Him in Luke 24:44-49.
  7. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

    United States
    Seems like this is an issue concerning the Filoque Controvery between the East and Rome. For most of us peon non denominational types it was the one foremost issue that led to the split between the Eastern and Western Church, a pity that needs not be dragged out any further.
    Let the East and West mend that rend and then we will listen.
  8. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    God mad man in His own image, and man is more than one person, including father and child and mother . . . like Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, Jesus is a family Person of God.
  9. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

    United States
    What verses are you seeing that you think disprove that Jesus is God? Is it the verses that call Jesus the Son of Man? Because Jesus is both, both God and man.

    Jesus is the Son of God, then He must be God. In the first chapter of Genesis, we are taught that every living thing reproduces after its own kind.

    Who was Jesus' Father? The Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Who is the Holy Spirit? He is God (Acts 5:3-4).

    Just as my father was a man, I am man. Jesus' father was God, so Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son of God, because He is God.

    In the same manner, Jesus' mother was a woman, so Jesus is a man. Jesus is the Son of Man, because He is a man.

    Birthed by both God and mankind, Jesus is both God and man.

    A kind begets like kind.

    Because, unlike the three Synoptic Gospels, John’s purpose is not to present a chronological narrative of the life of Christ but to display His deity. The author cites the purpose of the gospel of John as follows: “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31). John sought to strengthen the faith of second-generation believers and bring about faith in others, but he also sought to correct a false teaching that was spreading in the first century. John emphasized Jesus Christ as “the Son of God,” fully God and fully man, contrary to a false doctrine that taught the “Christ-spirit” came upon the human Jesus at His baptism and left Him at the crucifixion.

    1) Jesus received worship (Matthew 2:2, 14:33, 28:9). Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship and never told those who were worshiping Him to stop, thus, claiming to be God.

    2) Following are some of the New Testament themes that are found in the Old Testament, many of which attests to Jesus' divinity.

    Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God
    Found in the OT (Psalm 110:1)
    Fulfilled in NT (Matthew 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Ephesians 1:20)

    Atonement by blood
    Found in the OT (Leviticus 17:11)
    Fulfilled in NT (Hebrews 9:22)

    Begotten Son, Jesus is
    Found in OT (Psalm 2:7)
    Fulfilled in NT (Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5)

    Found in OT (Psalm 22:11-18; Zechariah 12:10)
    Fulfilled in NT (Luke 22:33-38)

    Eternal Son
    Found in OT (Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7)
    Fulfilled in NT (Hebrews 1:5, 5:5)

    God among His people
    Found in OT ( Isaiah 9:6)
    Fulfilled in NT (John 1:1, 14; 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Matthew 3:3)

    Incarnation of God
    Found in OT (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 45:6; Isaiah 9:6; Zechariah 12:10)
    Fulfilled in NT (John 8:58; 1:1, 14; Hebrews 1:8, Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:1-3)

    Only Begotten Son
    Found in OT (Genesis 22:2)
    Fulfilled in NT (John 3:16; Hebrews 11:7)

    Resurrection of Christ
    Found in OT (Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Isaiah 26:19)
    Fulfilled in NT (John 2:19-21)

    Return of Christ
    Found in OT (Zechariah 14:1-5; Micah 1:3-4)
    Fulfilled in NT (Matthew 16:27-28; Acts 1:11, 3:20)

    Sin offering
    Found in OT (Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 4:3)
    Fulfilled in NT (Romans 8:3; Hebrews 10:18, 13:11)

    Son of God
    Found in OT (Psalm 2:7)
    Fulfilled in NT (John 5:18)

    Substitutionary Atonement
    Found in OT (Isaiah 53:6-12; Leviticus 6:4-10,21)
    Fulfilled in NT (Matthew 20:28; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18)

    Virgin Birth
    Found in OT (Isaiah 7:14)
    Fulfilled in NT (Matthew 1:25)

    Jesus Himself was the fulfillment of the Law. To fulfill the law is to never break it, not even one little time. Never tell a lie, never covet your neighbor's stuff, never put anything before God, never steal anything, etc. Yes, Jesus being fully God and fully man is the only person capable of fulfilling/never breaking the law.

    To break the Law is sin and the wages of sin is death. That is eternal separation from God for breaking the law, just once, and we all break the law everyday. Sin must be judged and what is the judgement? Death. We are eternally lost in our sin. We deserve death.

    What are we to do? There is no way for us to save ourselves because we have already sinned and the wages of sin is death. Jesus lived a sinless life. He never broke the law even once. His sinless life and the fact that He was fully man qualified Him to be the atoning sacrifice for all mankind. In other words, since He never broke the law, He could die in my place and pay the wages for my sin. He takes my sin and gives me His righteousness so that I am made right with God. My sin has been judged and the price for it has been paid. Someone will pay for your sin too. Either you or Jesus. Only through Jesus can your sin debt be paid for and you be made right with God. Jesus is the bridge, over the chasm of sin, between God and man.
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    God in human form.

    It can be like how there is gold in various places . . . sort of like how God can be found everywhere.

    But that gold can be in forms. Even if gold is in some form, it is still gold.

    If gold were in the form of a man, this would not mean it is only a man; it is still gold, but just not all the gold everywhere. Like this, Jesus is God, but not God everywhere.

    But in the case of God, "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8 & 1 John 4:16) . . . wherever He is, which is good, by the way, since this means we can have God's love anywhere, at any time.

    God is love, in the Person of our Father, and in the personal form of Jesus, and He is love as the Holy Spirit who can flow and form into Jesus in each of us, as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19.

    Like this, gold can flow to make new forms. And each form is gold, because of its nature and quality . . . though, again I say, it is not all the gold that there is in existence.

    Jesus is all love > the love who is God. And 1 Corinthians 13 shares about how real love is. All this is true of Jesus.