Gospel: Fisher of Men = Promise of money?

radhead

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What is the appeal of becoming a "fisher of men"? The story where Jesus tells his followers to become one just sounds like he is telling untrained and uneducated men that they can have a more leisurely life if they become a minister. They will (1) not have to work hard, and (2) will make more money.

Is this really all that the "gospel" is all about? I don't think that is what Paul had in mind. But when the gospel writers wrote about it years later, it seems like they were mocking Paul in some way. Because Paul warned about the "love of money" as being the root of all kinds of evil. Or, maybe the gospel writers were criticizing what Christianity had turned into.

What about this passage from Matthew 17:24-27?

*
The Temple Tax

After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”
“Yes, he does,” he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”
“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
 
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JCFantasy23

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Fisher of men means spreading the gospel and drawing people to Christ. They definitely didn't have a leisurely life spreading the gospel! They knew they would be in for imprisonment, threat of death, taunts and derision.

Personally I think being a minister sounds like difficult and draining work.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What is the appeal of becoming a "fisher of men"? The story where Jesus tells his followers to become one just sounds like he is telling untrained and uneducated men that they can have a more leisurely life if they become a minister. They will (1) not have to work hard, and (2) will make more money.

I'm more interested in how you reached the conclusion that Christ calling people to serve Him, and to serve others in His name, means living a life of leisure and making money. Like, how'd you get that out of Jesus using a clever turn of phrase?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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radhead

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I'm more interested in how you reached the conclusion that Christ calling people to serve Him, and to serve others in His name, means living a life of leisure and making money. Like, how'd you get that out of Jesus using a clever turn of phrase?

-CryptoLutheran

Are you denying that ministers make their money from other people who earn their money in more conventional ways? They are paid by hard-working people, right?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Are you denying that ministers make their money from other people who earn their money in more conventional ways? They are paid by hard-working people, right?

Churches typically offer their clergy some form of salary or monetary compensation, yes. We make the assumption that our clergy are human beings who need to be able to do things like eat food.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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radhead

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Fisher of men means spreading the gospel and drawing people to Christ. They definitely didn't have a leisurely life spreading the gospel! They knew they would be in for imprisonment, threat of death, taunts and derision.

Personally I think being a minister sounds like difficult and draining work.

If that was what occurred in the early days of Jesus and his followers, then it must have been nothing like what Christianity is today. Which makes me think that the movement which began before the gospels were written must have been more political than religious. No one is going to offend anyone today or be imprisoned by doing what a regular church does today.

The fishers of men are not going to be doing things like serving tables (as they complained about before they hired the martyr Stephen). Their "work" is ministry. Which is basically making presentations. Teaching classes. Performing music. Traveling. Praying. Etc. There is difficult work to be done, certainly, but that is done by the non-staff members who are told that they are doing it in "service" to God. They are usually coerced into doing the difficult work.

1. The paid staff does the fun work.
2. The volunteer members do the menial tasks.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If that was what occurred in the early days of Jesus and his followers, then it must have been nothing like what Christianity is today. Which makes me think that the movement which began before the gospels were written must have been more political than religious. No one is going to offend anyone today by doing what a regular church does today.

The fishers of men are not going to be doing things like serving tables (as they complained about before they hired the martyr Stephen). Their "work" is ministry. Which is basically making presentations. Teaching classes. Performing music. Traveling. Praying. Etc. There is difficult work to be done, certainly, but that is done by the non-staff members who are told that they are doing it in "service" to God. They are usually coerced into doing the difficult work.

1. The paid staff does the fun work.
2. The volunteer members do the menial tasks.

Lay leaders and those employed for various tasks are also usually paid for their work.

I also think you have a particular idea of what a "minister" is in your mind and you're using that as a caricature of two thousand years of pastoral care.

As just one example, I have an uncle that is a pastor of a small church, he's not making a lot of money. In fact he regularly goes months without getting paid anything--why? Because usually the church has needs that require monetary attention and he's willing to put the needs of the church before his own. He still gets by, my cousin and his wife live in his house and and members of the church offer to help out here and there.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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radhead

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Lay leaders and those employed for various tasks are also usually paid for their work.

I also think you have a particular idea of what a "minister" is in your mind and you're using that as a caricature of two thousand years of pastoral care.

As just one example, I have an uncle that is a pastor of a small church, he's not making a lot of money. In fact he regularly goes months without getting paid anything--why? Because usually the church has needs that require monetary attention and he's willing to put the needs of the church before his own. He still gets by, my cousin and his wife live in his house and and members of the church offer to help out here and there.

-CryptoLutheran

I have no doubt there are good churches which are devoted to helping people, and I have a lot of respect for them. But I don't think it is the norm. And I think that the gospels and the book of Acts were writing about the ones that were not so good.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have no doubt there are good churches which are devoted to helping people, and I have a lot of respect for them. But I don't think it is the norm. And I think that the gospels and the book of Acts were writing about the ones that were not so good.

And you base that on the fact that Jesus called people to follow Him and serve others in His name?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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radhead

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And you base that on the fact that Jesus called people to follow Him and serve others in His name?

-CryptoLutheran

I guess so, though I might not have put it that way. But now that you mention it, serving others is a more lucrative career when you do use the name of Jesus, it seems.
 
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I guess so, though I might not have put it that way. But now that you mention it, serving others is a more lucrative career when you do use the name of Jesus, it seems.

Then it seems all you're doing is making assumptions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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What is the appeal of becoming a "fisher of men"?

Nothing. The appeal is in becoming a phisher of men.

Churches should be illegal on the grounds that they are consistently used to cause harm. They promote self-harm, they leech off the community by accepting emergency aid without paying taxes, and they contribute very little. I hear about all these hospitals that churches make, but I can't actually find one that will treat me at no cost - or, at the very least, at no cost above expenses.

Personally, I don't actually think that churches should be illegal. The above is only necessary for consistency: in America, where I live, mind-altering drugs are illegal because they cause harm to the self, to others, and to the community. There is no consideration given to the idea that one should have the right to use drugs in private and be held responsible for any harm done while intoxicated. Therefore, since the church sets out to alter minds, and since it causes harm to the self and to the community, it should be illegal if and only if mind-altering drugs are illegal.

I am not suggesting that Christianity should be illegal, or even that practicing it should be illegal, but just that churches should be illegal.

I think that aside from helping society as a whole, this would help Christianity as well. In fact, it would be immense help. Christianity would go back to its roots and members would meet in private homes, like in the beginning. Fake Christians would be quickly weeded out. National-scale persecution would galvanize the body of Christ and encourage members to be better Christians.

The only victims would be the phishers of men.
 
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radhead

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Then it seems all you're doing is making assumptions.

-CryptoLutheran

Aren't you making an assumption yourself when you say that a story in the Bible was literally true?

If the story contains magic and miracles, then the burden of proof is on you to support your claim.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Aren't you making an assumption yourself when you say that a story in the Bible was literally true?

If the story contains magic and miracles, then the burden of proof is on you to support your claim.

Seems to me there's a pretty big difference between reading something that says, "Bob is 54 years old" and then saying, "Ah, well Bob if 54 years old" and reading something that says, "Bob is 54 years old" and then saying, "Ah, well Bob hates the Dutch".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Seems to me there's a pretty big difference between reading something that says, "Bob is 54 years old" and then saying, "Ah, well Bob if 54 years old" and reading something that says, "Bob is 54 years old" and then saying, "Ah, well Bob hates the Dutch".

-CryptoLutheran

Oh come on. Christians frolic in the land of non-sequitur waaaaay more than atheists. The staple Christian argument is, "Look at the trees, therefore God."
 
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Oh come on. Christians frolic in the land of non-sequitur waaaaay more than atheists. The staple Christian argument is, "Look at the trees, therefore God."

*Creationist argument.

Also, tu quoque.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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*Creationist argument.

You aren't a creationist? You... believe that the universe may have come about from natural processes and you don't make the positive claim that it was created by God? Hmmm...

Also, tu quoque.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks, didn't know about that one. But that's not what I did. I was just slinging mud. There was no implied conclusion from any of it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh come on. Christians frolic in the land of non-sequitur waaaaay more than atheists. The staple Christian argument is, "Look at the trees, therefore God."

That's a nice little Straw-man you have there......

It's kind of like the staple Atheist argument, "Look at the Christians, therefore no God."

:cool:
 
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ViaCrucis

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You aren't a creationist? You... believe that the universe may have come about from natural processes and you don't make the positive claim that it was created by God? Hmmm...

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The belief that God is the creator of all things is an unfalsifiable faith claim; and it doesn't negate naturalistic processes by which things came to be.

The argument of "tree, therefore God" is usually either an argument from ignorance or an argument from incredulity, in which the tree's complexity is asserted (without evidence) as evidence of an intelligent creator on account of a claimed irreducible complexity either from ignorance (of how evolution does a very good job at explaining complexity in living systems) and/or incredulity.

One can believe that God is "maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen" without being a "Creationist" or subscribing to intelligent design (as though either were scientifically valid positions). There can be (and frequently this is the case) where the faith claim exists in tandem with the understanding of naturalistic processes.

It was, by the way, a Belgian Catholic priest and scientist (Georges Lemaître) who established the legwork and initially put forward the theory of the universe as expanding and that this is due to some sort of initial event (i.e. the Big Bang) which was ultimately demonstrated by Hubble by demonstrating the redshift of the universe. Naturalistic explanations are not to the exclusion of God, such a dichotomy is fundamentally false. Valid scientific argumentation necessitates methodological naturalism; but methodological naturalism is not the same thing as metaphysical naturalism. One does not need to be a metaphysical naturalist in order to do science properly, which is why both religious and irreligious scientists are able to engage in the same science and get the same results and reach the same conclusions because they are using the same proper scientific methods.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aren't you making an assumption yourself when you say that a story in the Bible was literally true?

If the story contains magic and miracles, then the burden of proof is on you to support your claim.
You're the one coming to this forum and making the claim, "the Gospel message is this: be lazy and make money."

YOU are the one who needs to support your claim.
 
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