Good women have abortions.

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dzheremi

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Of course abortion is murder. I don't understand how it could be otherwise. There could be all the mitigating circumstances in the world and it would still be the forcible taking of a life. You can argue whether or not the act is justified, but that doesn't change what the act is. Unless the psychotropic drugs, abusive husbands, doctors, etc. somehow magically make the child not a person anymore (not "I was whacked out of my head, so I couldn't see them as a person" or "the doctors convinced me s/he was just a clump of cells", but actually make the child into some other kind of thing besides a human being), then of course it's murder. Stop trying to make people and actions into something other than what they are.
 
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TheBarrd

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And, as a counselor, surely you realize that "murder" does not describe the action for which you were counseling these women. (And if part of your "counseling" involved telling them that they "murdered their children," you should have hung your shingle up years ago).

Murder requires premeditation, intent, malice, and, while I readily admit that I have not had much contact with women (or teens) who have had abortions, I don't see any of the characteristics of "murder" in their actions.

Of course I didn't call the women I spoke with murderers. OTOH, neither did I deny it on those occasions when one of my girls called it murder. One thing I NEVER did, I NEVER called a baby a "clump of cells" or "products of conception"...or even a "fetus", although that term, at least, is correct. I always called it a baby or an infant.
Most of the time, these poor girls already realize that they have murdered their children. Unfortunately, the truth has hit them after the fact. Of course, abortion clinics do not tell her that the result of her abortion will be a dead baby...but she knew what she was carrying. And after it is over, she realizes that her baby is dead...and that she made the decision to kill him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that is murder.
When a girl tells you that she has murdered her baby, the thing to do is to help her to repent, and to realize that God can and will forgive her...and also to warn her, as Christ did to the woman taken in adultery, to go and "sin no more".
 
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brewmama

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Actually, pro-life people including Bishops, want abortion banned under the law.

Bishop Tobin of RI was asked by Chris Matthews if he would like to see a law passed to ban abortions.

The Bishop immediately answered "yes."

Catholic Politicians are constantly told by some Bishops, not to receive Holy Communion if they vote for legislation which might included indirect funds for abortions.

When Bishop Tobin was asked by Christ Matthews if legislation should be written to outlaw abortions. The Bishop answered "yes." Mathews then asked what penalty should a woman who obtains an abortion get, under the law you want banning abortion ? Bishop Tobin stumbled and refused to answer the question saying law wasn't his area of expertise.

So Mathews asked, then how can you tell Catholic Politicians to write a law banning abortion when you admit to not knowing how such a law should be written and enforced ?

I'm paraphrasing the interview here, but it's what took place and Bishop Tobin was ridiculed for his poor performance.

Now, I agree, that abortion is a intrinsic moral evil and a Catholic who obtains one with full knowledge, commits mortal sin.

There are cases however where full knowledge may not be know, and free will not involved when the mother has to chose between death and aborting a previable fetus.

Jim

Of course they want it banned under the law, just like any other murder or criminal act. That doesn't translate into
OK, let us know when you hear of a Bishop saying a woman who obtains an abortion, should be tried for murder under the law.

Last I heard, the confessional was sealed.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Of course they want it banned under the law, just like any other murder or criminal act. That doesn't translate into

Last I heard, the confessional was sealed.

But I was referring to civil law which you first responded.

Catholics must confess that they obtained or assisted directly in an abortion.


But that's a different issue than making abortion illegal and the penalty to be imposed on violators of the law is imprisonment.

Jim
 
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Fantine

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I am aware, of course, that some of you cheered when George Zimmerman was acquitted of murdering the skittle-carrying adolescent...when the Ferguson cop wasn't indicted...when fleeing suspects are shot in the back eight times, or assaulted so badly they die a week later, knowing that police officers have never been indicted in those respective cities.

You are setting the example for devaluing life. When impressionable children in inner cities (for example) see their friends and family members shot down in cold blood while their assailants are acquitted, exactly how are they supposed to figure out that taking RU486 three weeks after a missed period is "murder?"

Conservatives justify murder all the time. Then they blather on about keeping guns "in case the government oversteps its bounds." Or pay dues to an organization that promotes "stand your ground" laws and get legislation passed in Florida making it legal to shoot a suspect who might have stolen your CD player in the back.

Want to prove to young people that that three week old embryo is a precious child of God? Hold police accountable for brutality. Hold citizens accountable when they kill unarmed teens like Trayvon Martin.

Abortion is not my top issue. I think it's wrong. I think that a more compassionate society would help eliminate it more than prohibitions. Quite frankly, there are so many injustices being perpetrated against those who are already walking the earth that I'm plenty busy.

I'm picking up the slack the abortion picketers create in other areas.

But I know exactly why unborn life is devalued. People have eyes and ears--and they see how born life is devalued. Wake up.
 
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brewmama

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I am aware, of course, that some of you cheered when George Zimmerman was acquitted of murdering the skittle-carrying adolescent...when the Ferguson cop wasn't indicted...when fleeing suspects are shot in the back eight times, or assaulted so badly they die a week later, knowing that police officers have never been indicted in those respective cities.

You are setting the example for devaluing life. When impressionable children in inner cities (for example) see their friends and family members shot down in cold blood while their assailants are acquitted, exactly how are they supposed to figure out that taking RU486 three weeks after a missed period is "murder?"

Conservatives justify murder all the time. Then they blather on about keeping guns "in case the government oversteps its bounds." Or pay dues to an organization that promotes "stand your ground" laws and get legislation passed in Florida making it legal to shoot a suspect who might have stolen your CD player in the back.

Want to prove to young people that that three week old embryo is a precious child of God? Hold police accountable for brutality. Hold citizens accountable when they kill unarmed teens like Trayvon Martin.

Abortion is not my top issue. I think it's wrong. I think that a more compassionate society would help eliminate it more than prohibitions. Quite frankly, there are so many injustices being perpetrated against those who are already walking the earth that I'm plenty busy.

I'm picking up the slack the abortion picketers create in other areas.

But I know exactly why unborn life is devalued. People have eyes and ears--and they see how born life is devalued. Wake up.


You do a great slander to unborn babies to equate them with guilty criminals. We only "cheer" when truth is upheld over lies and justice is served. Self defense is not murder. Abortion is. It's really sad when people are unable to see the difference.

In the case of " When impressionable children in inner cities (for example) see their friends and family members shot down in cold blood" I would hope that they would have enough sense to not repeat the mistakes those killed have made. I don't know of anyone who wants a cop who is actually guilty of murder to get away with it, but when the "evil oppression" is shown over and over again to be a lie, it begins to ring hollow.
 
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TheBarrd

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As interesting as all of this is, whether or not abortion is murder has nothing whatsoever to do with what any religion says about it.
Abortion is not just a Catholic issue. All Christians...indeed, all human beings...ought to be concerned.

Yes, there ought to be a penalty imposed on both the abortionist, and the Mom. if a distraught mother were to drown her two day old infant in the bathtub, no one would wonder if she ought to pay a penalty...there are some who would see such a woman pay the death penalty. What is the difference between that mother and the one who allowed her infant to be hacked to pieces a few weeks before he was due to be born?
In either case, it is murder...and murder most foul! The murder of a helpless little child!

I'm not sure, but I think that, if the mom who drowned her infant were to go and confess to her priest, under the law, he would have to report it. I don't think that the sanctity of the confessional extends to protecting murderers. Nor should it in the case of murder by abortion. Murder is murder.

Now, suppose we change the rules a bit?
If a woman wants an abortion, in order for her to have it, she must first agree to name the father.
If the father wants the child, she must carry to term and let him have the baby.
If the father does not want the child, then he must be sterilized so that he doesn't create any more "crisis pregnancies".
Same for the woman. If she has named the father and he doesn't want the child, then let her have the abortion, on the condition that she be sterilized so that she will not create any more unwanted babies.

It would still be murder...but at least it would ensure that people who do not want to be parents would not have to worry about the consequences of their irresponsible sex...
 
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TheBarrd

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I am aware, of course, that some of you cheered when George Zimmerman was acquitted of murdering the skittle-carrying adolescent...when the Ferguson cop wasn't indicted...when fleeing suspects are shot in the back eight times, or assaulted so badly they die a week later, knowing that police officers have never been indicted in those respective cities.

You are setting the example for devaluing life. When impressionable children in inner cities (for example) see their friends and family members shot down in cold blood while their assailants are acquitted, exactly how are they supposed to figure out that taking RU486 three weeks after a missed period is "murder?"

Conservatives justify murder all the time. Then they blather on about keeping guns "in case the government oversteps its bounds." Or pay dues to an organization that promotes "stand your ground" laws and get legislation passed in Florida making it legal to shoot a suspect who might have stolen your CD player in the back.

Want to prove to young people that that three week old embryo is a precious child of God? Hold police accountable for brutality. Hold citizens accountable when they kill unarmed teens like Trayvon Martin.

Abortion is not my top issue. I think it's wrong. I think that a more compassionate society would help eliminate it more than prohibitions. Quite frankly, there are so many injustices being perpetrated against those who are already walking the earth that I'm plenty busy.

I'm picking up the slack the abortion picketers create in other areas.

But I know exactly why unborn life is devalued. People have eyes and ears--and they see how born life is devalued. Wake up.

You have a good point, there.
Problem is, you have it backward.
Take a trip backward in time, to a time before Roe vs. Wade. Now, it wasn't a perfect society then, that is true. But most of the problems you are talking about were vanishingly tiny. No one had ever heard of a school shooting, for instance. There weren't a lot of cases of cops killing skittle carrying adolescents...there weren't an awful lot of skittle carrying adolescents putting themselves in that position.
Okay, maybe the world wasn't exactly an Ozzie and Harriet or Leave It To Beaver paradise...but people did place a lot more value on life before children became a disposable commodity.

Think about it.
 
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Armoured

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You have a good point, there.
Problem is, you have it backward.
Take a trip backward in time, to a time before Roe vs. Wade. Now, it wasn't a perfect society then, that is true. But most of the problems you are talking about were vanishingly tiny. No one had ever heard of a school shooting, for instance. There weren't a lot of cases of cops killing skittle carrying adolescents...there weren't an awful lot of skittle carrying adolescents putting themselves in that position.
Okay, maybe the world wasn't exactly an Ozzie and Harriet or Leave It To Beaver paradise...but people did place a lot more value on life before children became a disposable commodity.

Think about it.

Or has better reporting just made us more aware of the problems?
 
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TheBarrd

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Or has better reporting just made us more aware of the problems?

Armoured, I am about to turn 65.
In other words, I was a teenager during the sixties.
Do you know the worst thing a kid in school could do was get caught with cigarettes?
Don't even think of accusing a girl of not being a virgin. Them was fightin' words. You certainly did not see pregnant girls walking the halls.
I don't remember hearing anything about gang wars. We knew about marijuana, but that was about it in small town America.
No, I don't think it is better reporting. I think we have less respect for life.
And I think a lot of that is because we are callously murdering over a million helpless infants a year in abortion mills.
With those kinds of numbers, what do you think we are saying to our children?

"How lucky for you that your Momma didn't consider you an inconvenience. She allowed you to live..."
 
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Armoured

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Armoured, I am about to turn 65.
In other words, I was a teenager during the sixties.
Do you know the worst thing a kid in school could do was get caught with cigarettes?
Don't even think of accusing a girl of not being a virgin. Them was fightin' words. You certainly did not see pregnant girls walking the halls.
I don't remember hearing anything about gang wars. We knew about marijuana, but that was about it in small town America.
No, I don't think it is better reporting. I think we have less respect for life.
And I think a lot of that is because we are callously murdering over a million helpless infants a year in abortion mills.
With those kinds of numbers, what do you think we are saying to our children?

"How lucky for you that your Momma didn't consider you an inconvenience. She allowed you to live..."
Again, better reporting explains much of this. Sociological problems existed in the 60s, they just weren't talked about as openly.

Don't take my word for it, look up some trends.
 
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TheBarrd

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Maybe you didn't understand me, Armoured.
I was born in 1950.
I was there for the Viet Nam war. I mourned the "Four Dead in Ohio" just like everyone else.
Yes, there were problems. Murder and mayhem, however, weren't among them. Those kinds of things get talked about.
No, it wasn't "bad reporting". We have lost the respect for life we once had.
Every citizen no longer has the right to life...we have taken that away.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Abortion is not my top issue. I think it's wrong. I think that a more compassionate society would help eliminate it more than prohibitions. Quite frankly, there are so many injustices being perpetrated against those who are already walking the earth that I'm plenty busy.

I'm picking up the slack the abortion picketers create in other areas.

But I know exactly why unborn life is devalued. People have eyes and ears--and they see how born life is devalued. Wake up.

I actually agree that methods other than jailing women and heckling them as murderers are more effective at discouraging abortion. I just don't think we should realistically, when talking about moral theology, try to pretend that abortion is anything but.

But there are many deterrents to abortion. For example, the existence of social programs available to support single mothers discourages abortions. The willingness of a community to give and support a woman and her child(ren) does wonders in helping women feel more confident that they can survive birthing and raising a child (which can be a very harrowing and isolating experience).
 
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TheBarrd

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I actually agree that methods other than jailing women and heckling them as murderers are more effective at discouraging abortion. I just don't think we should realistically, when talking about moral theology, try to pretend that abortion is anything but.

Keeping murder legal isn't helping.
Letting these girls think that it's just a "clump of cells" isn't helping. They know, of course, that it isn't true...but it's enough to soothe their troubled conscience long enough to get them into the clinic. Who cares if she figures it out later? The dirty deed has been done. She'll just have to deal with her guilt the best she can.
And so she ends up sitting with someone like me, letting me hold her while the tears flow.
Yes, I'm angry. Those who are fighting to keep abortion legal don't really give a hoot about these girls, or their babies. It's become a matter of principle.
Freedom of choice? It would really be "choice" if we told these girls the truth going in... You may call it "heckling" if you like. Come talk to me after you've sat with a girl who happened to look down at the wrong moment, and saw her baby's severed head floating in a bucket of blood.

But there are many deterrents to abortion. For example, the existence of social programs available to support single mothers discourages abortions. The willingness of a community to give and support a woman and her child(ren) does wonders in helping women feel more confident that they can survive birthing and raising a child (which can be a very harrowing and isolating experience).

Do you have any idea how hard it can be to find these "programs" for a girl in a crisis pregnancy? The public attitude seems to be "if you can't afford to raise a kid, you should abort". I don't see an awful lot of community outreach to women who are actually struggling as single mothers.
You're right...such programs would help.
That is why there are abortion alternative centers, like the ones I have volunteered with. I'm getting too old to put in those kinds of hours these days...but I can tell you from first hand experience...there is very little compassion in this cold world for these girls. It is more "convenient" for society to pack them into abortion mills and flush the problem away...
 
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Fantine

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You and I are about the same age, Barrd, but I grew up in metropolitan NY. Abortions became legal in NY before Roe v. Wade (not sure exactly when, probably a few years earlier). In college I knew a girl who flew to Puerto Rico to get an abortion--apparently they were legal in Puerto Rico even before they were legal in NY.

I think that there was widespread change in so many different areas that it would be foolish to point to one (like abortion) and say that "that's" the cause of society's problems.

No fault divorce. Urbanization. The sexual revolution. Technology. War. Vatican II (that's one of the biggest scapegoats in OBOB, it seems). I think it's a combination of many factors.

But the one thing I am absolutely convinced of is this: We are a sensory species. That's one reason why Catholics use incense and candles and bells...

And so if you want to demonstrate your concern for the value of human life in a way that people will find compelling, you have to do it for the already born.

Demonstrating how you value life on the unborn is kind of like playing air guitar.

Certainly helping young mothers and babies is a great way to show your respect for life, and those are the kind of pro-life charities I support. But in that case you have mothers and babies to work with--no air guitar.
 
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Armoured

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Maybe you didn't understand me, Armoured.
I was born in 1950.
I was there for the Viet Nam war. I mourned the "Four Dead in Ohio" just like everyone else.
Yes, there were problems. Murder and mayhem, however, weren't among them. Those kinds of things get talked about.
No, it wasn't "bad reporting". We have lost the respect for life we once had.
Every citizen no longer has the right to life...we have taken that away.

I'll just leave this here... Good old days - RationalWiki

This, too. "Lynchings by year"http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html
 
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They do? I have yet to see a Catholic Church use incense during Mass anywhere in Central California. The last time I saw it was for benediction after Stations of the Cross a couple months back. I was in shock.

It HAS TO BE used in Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies and in Orthodox ones. If you actually have it in your area, you're lucky! Vatican II did a lot to purge the holy smoke from my area!

That's one reason why Catholics use incense and candles and bells...

.
 
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brewmama

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I'll just leave this here... Good old days - RationalWiki

This, too. "Lynchings by year"Lynching Statistics by Year


Interesting how you seem to avoid the subject and bring up data that has no bearing on the discussion. Your lynch stats don't begin to even hold a candle to abortion stats. And to use one of your own arguments, (not mine), what difference do those lynching stats make when more people are getting killed in car accidents!
 
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Armoured

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Interesting how you seem to avoid the subject and bring up data that has no bearing on the discussion. Your lynch stats don't begin to even hold a candle to abortion stats. And to use one of your own arguments, (not mine), what difference do those lynching stats make when more people are getting killed in car accidents!

*eyeroll* it was in reference to his claim about how there didn't used to be "murder and mayhem", but please, pick another form of violence, other than lynching, and we'll see what it's trend is?
 
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