Good God... Please answer all four..

[Dave L]

Oh Dave, you dont have to go to such an extreme because I am not a Calvinist.
Blessings.

In time you might realize that Calvinism is the only view of scripture that glorifies God instead of yourself.

 

[Dave L]

I am not sure what you mean by that?

Have you ever read the OT? It shows a far different view of God who does not change than the big brother with a limp wrist people prefer today.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In time you might realize that Calvinism is the only view of scripture that glorifies God instead of yourself.

Honestly Dave, this comment is precisely why I will never concede to this theological view.

 

[Dave L]

Honestly Dave, this comment is precisely why I will never concede to this theological view.

How do you not glory in saving yourself at god's beckoning? God saved me when I wanted nothing to do with him. Therefore He gets the glory.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How do you not glory in saving yourself at god's beckoning? God saved me when I wanted nothing to do with him. Therefore He gets the glory.

Yet you chose to be saved by believing in Him. If believing in Him is somehow twisted into glorifying oneself then I am afraid this is not the Gospel.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Have you ever read the OT? It shows a far different view of God who does not change than the big brother with a limp wrist people prefer today.

Numerous times.

I pointed out that the verse you quoted does not say that God creates evil, rather that God creates calamity. And you responded by pointing out that there passages where God turns people into cannibals. I don't remember any such passages and it seems that you don't either.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just take him at his word and spend more time in the OT looking for his creation of evil in the many examples.

Don't need to go just to the OT to see what you are referring to. I just consider it 'causation' —not 'creation'— of sin, in same sense as he created the universe or mankind. I doubt even you consider God to be the 'author' of sin. He certainly has no sin, nor does he sin, nor does he even tempt anyone, according to Scripture. (But I do appreciate you sticking to the term, 'evil', rather than 'sin', when you say this.)

Maybe this gets to the heart of it: I can hardly even understand how it is possible for God to make something that is not himself. But to think that he can make something capable of rebelling against him is more than I can deal with —but here we are...

 

[Dave L]

Don't need to go just to the OT to see what you are referring to. I just consider it 'causation' —not 'creation'— of sin, in same sense as he created the universe or mankind. I doubt even you consider God to be the 'author' of sin. He certainly has no sin, nor does he sin, nor does he even tempt anyone, according to Scripture. (But I do appreciate you sticking to the term, 'evil', rather than 'sin', when you say this.)

Maybe this gets to the heart of it: I can hardly even understand how it is possible for God to make something that is not himself. But to think that he can make something capable of rebelling against him is more than I can deal with —but here we are...

I see it more, God is the cause of sin and man is the author.

 

[Dave L]

Numerous times.

I pointed out that the verse you quoted does not say that God creates evil, rather that God creates calamity. And you responded by pointing out that there passages where God turns people into cannibals. I don't remember any such passages and it seems that you don't either.

Don't be "silly" "uncle Wayne". Turning people into cannibals is creating evil.

 

[Dave L]

Yet you chose to be saved by believing in Him. If believing in Him is somehow twisted into glorifying oneself then I am afraid this is not the Gospel.

I did not choose to believe. It happened based on experience. Do you need to choose to believe in anything you experience?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I did not choose to believe.

We'll stop here because this is off topic and a rabbit hole I do not wish to enter.
Thanks for engaging !

 

[Sophrosyne]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

Relying totally on the KJV for all things is not wise as it is outdated and both culture and language has changed since the time it was written. Even the New King James Version doesn't use the word Evil in it. The word Evil likely had these meanings back in the day.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

NRSV
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

I've seen dozens of debates based almost entirely upon this translation of this scripture with almost all of those accusing God of being "evil" or the source of evil on it and many of the people accusing God of evil were not Christians at all but were attacking Christianity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I see it more, God is the cause of sin and man is the author.

OT: I wish I understood better the subject I alluded to earlier, the way God is, or does, things we cannot abide, and consider unloving, even horrifyingly creepy. We hear the mocking of unbelievers concerning such things as blood sacrifice, the killing of whole nations or even the whole world by flood, the existence and use of the Lake of Fire, etc.

Even most believers have a problem with God being the first cause of sin. They want it to be a surprise to God, since God is altogether without sin, and it simply didn't occur to him that it would happen.

They want salvation and redemption to be clinical and serene. They want the principles and equations to work automatically, not "worked out" by constant attention, intention and effort. It is as though they think an alligator should kill with one deft, swift stroke to a major vessel or spinal column, and not slowly by drowning or suffocation, not rolling over and over in the mud.

 

[Dave L]

Relying totally on the KJV for all things is not wise as it is outdated and both culture and language has changed since the time it was written. Even the New King James Version doesn't use the word Evil in it. The word Evil likely had these meanings back in the day.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

NRSV
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

I've seen dozens of debates based almost entirely upon this translation of this scripture with almost all of those accusing God of being "evil" or the source of evil on it and many of the people accusing God of evil were not Christians at all but were attacking Christianity.

Does not God create evil when he turns people into cannibals? Check any translation, it all adds up to God creating all including evil.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Does not God create evil when he turns people into cannibals? Check any translation, it all adds up to God creating all including evil.

So in other words if one person in a tribe of cannibals refuses to become one then they are resisting God's choice for them? How ludicrous.
The huge problem with God creating evil is that can make him the source of evil and the source of ALL evil and thus we are not responsible for the evil we do because God is the ultimate source thus we cannot be blamed for our sins and thus we don't need to have a savior from things we do wrong because it is all God's fault.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Honestly Dave, this comment is precisely why I will never concede to this theological view.

How else do you describe a gospel where one's eternity hinges on one's human (silly, weak, ignorant, flippant, emotional, wavering, inconsistent, insecure, self-important, selfish, forgetful, etc etc etc) decision, and God is surprised by sin? Calvinism says God is the worker of salvation from first to last, and his Gospel is one of pure Grace. Calvinism has it as Scripture does, that this is all according to God's plan and according to his own counsel, unlike a gospel that has God waiting for the able will of man to act, before he can salvage the situation we have gotten ourselves into.

Unlike that other thread implies, that God gave us freewill, which test we have failed, Calvinism (and the Bible) has God the beginning and end and means of our faith. Choice is taught in the Bible. Freewill is not.

 

[Dave L]

So in other words if one person in a tribe of cannibals refuses to become one then they are resisting God's choice for them? How ludicrous.
The huge problem with God creating evil is that can make him the source of evil and the source of ALL evil and thus we are not responsible for the evil we do because God is the ultimate source thus we cannot be blamed for our sins and thus we don't need to have a savior from things we do wrong because it is all God's fault.

God controls every choice you ever made or will make. Your view of Him is not biblical.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yet you chose to be saved by believing in Him. If believing in Him is somehow twisted into glorifying oneself then I am afraid this is not the Gospel.

You are right that is not the Gospel. That is what Dave is trying to tell you. The Arminian Gospel is synergism, where the work of God combines with the work of man to produce a total effort, the sum of which is better than either one alone. MAN-glorifying.

Calvinism is monergism, where the Gospel is the work of God from first to last. Pure GRACE. GOD-glorifying.

What is your Gospel —a sort of half breed?, where though eternity hinges on your decision, your decision means nothing, does nothing? In Calvinism, your decision is a result of regeneration —not the cause of it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So in other words if one person in a tribe of cannibals refuses to become one then they are resisting God's choice for them? How ludicrous.
The huge problem with God creating evil is that can make him the source of evil and the source of ALL evil and thus we are not responsible for the evil we do because God is the ultimate source thus we cannot be blamed for our sins and thus we don't need to have a savior from things we do wrong because it is all God's fault.

What is ludicrous is the notion that anything can happen apart from the causation by First Cause. If one person in a tribe of cannibals refuses to become one, they are precisely fulfilling what God has determined will happen. EVERY TIME.

Your implication that if God causes evil, the evil-doers are not responsible, is bogus, and a chasing after self-determination, which is unGodliness.

 

[Sophrosyne]

God controls every choice you ever made or will make. Your view of Him is not biblical.

If God controls all our choices then we cannot have faith in him at all.