God's Word in the O.T. and N.T., Logos and Dabar

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Evangelion

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Homie -

He must be mistaken because verse 14 makes it clear that he is talking about Jesus, at least the word analogy is about Jesus.

I agree wholeheartedly that verse 14 is about Jesus. I have made this very clear in my argument. What I deny, is that Jesus is the logos of the previous verses.

John does not describe Jesus as the logos per se, but only the logos made flesh. Jesus does not literally exist before verse 14. That's the whole key to the Johannine prologue.

But I didn't read the whole article so I am in no position to dismiss his claims.

Perhaps it's time to read the whole article. :cool:
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 04:05 PM Evangelion said this in Post #180 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=654338#post654338)

Well, at the end of the day, all I see is:
  • OS failing to substantiate his accusations.
  • OS continuing to dodge my questions.
  • OS refusing to address my argument.
I haven't seen anything substantial here - just a repeat of the same old tactics.

*dusts his hands and walks away* :cool:
Well, at the end of the day, all I see is:
  • EV failing to substantiate his accusations.
  • EV continuing to dodge my questions and my posts, e.g. name bearing angel.
  • EV refusing to address my arguments
  • EV posting irrelevant quotes trying to muddy the waters.
  • EV posting more bloviation.
Why take 2 or 3 pages to say something when you can say everything you need to say in only 30 or so pages? I haven't seen anything substantial here - just a repeat of the same old tactics.

*dusts his hands and walks away* :cool:
 
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OldShepherd

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Future Man

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Well, at the end of the day, all I see is:




OS failing to substantiate his accusations.


OS continuing to dodge my questions.


OS refusing to address my argument.


I haven't seen anything substantial here - just a repeat of the same old tactics.

*dusts his hands and walks away*


....Evangelion failing to address a singe line of context in John's prologue or any argument in relation to such. :rolleyes:

More like "*dusts his hands and RUNS away*" :D:D
 
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Dee Dee Warren

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Dear Homie:

Hmm, that would be a good subject for another thread, but in short, let me clarify a few things here. First of all, Ev and I have a "history" which gives us a little bit more lattitude in dealing with each other. Second, I find his way of dealing with those who disagree bombastically arrogant and demeaning. Third, I do not consider anyone who rejects the deity of Christ a Christian, not that is any excuse to treat anyone any differently, I just wanted to make that clear.

All that being said, I apologize for any offense my humor may have caused.
 
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OldShepherd

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Saw this on another thread here at CF and KNEW I had to post it here.
  • 22nd August 2002 at 03:28 AM Phoenix said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=310211#post310211)I saw this from another message board and thought i would post it here. Great article-John knew exactly what he wanted to convey to the reader of John 1:1 - and the Word was made Flesh.

    The Targums were authoritative Aramaic paraphrases of the books of the Tenach which were read in the synagogues along with the Hebrew of the Torah and hafTorah readings. Whenever the Targums come to passages where YHWH is anthropomorphisised or seen, or where two or more YHWHs are indicated by the text, the Targums will often substitute "The Word [Memra] of YHWH" for YHWH.

    For example in Gen. 19:4 the Tenach has:

    And YHVH rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, from YHVH, from the heavens. (Original Bible Project preliminary edition)

    The Hebrew grammar here indicates that one YHWH rains fire from another YHWH). But Targum Jonathan substitutes "The Word of YHWH/the L-RD" for the first of the two YHWHs as follows:

    And the Word of the YHWH caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the YHWH in heaven.

    In another example the Torah has:

    Ex. 24:1a (YHWH is the speaker, see Ex. 20:1-2) Now He [YHWH] said to Moses, "come up to YHWH..."

    But Targum Jonathan paraphrases the speaker in Ex. 20:1 with the substitution "the Word [Memra] of YHWH" in place of "YHWH."

    And the Word of the Lord spoke all these glorious words ... So it would seem that one of these entities called "YHWH" in these Torah passages was actually understood by the Targumists as being the "Word of YHWH."

    It was, according to Targum Onkelos, this Word of YHWH that Abraham trusted in:



    And Abraham trusted in the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and He counted it to him for righteousness. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 15:6)

    Moreover Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH:

    And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of&nbsp; the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and said, "You are YHWH who does see, but You cannot be seen." (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14)

    Note that here Abraham prays "in the name of the Word of YHWH" to the YHWH who "cannot be seen." Here two YHWHs are very apparent. Abraham is praying in the name of the Word of YHWH but is praying to the YHWH who cannot be seen. This idea is reinforced elsewhere as follows:

    And Hagar praised and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] Of YHWH who had revealed Himself to her (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 16:3)

    It was this Word of YHWH that Jacob also trusted in:

    And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If the Word [Memra] of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra]of YHWH be my G-d. (Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21)

    King David also urged Israel to trust in the Word of Yah as the Targum of Psalm 62 reads:

    Trust in the Word of Yah at all times, O people of the house of Israel! Pour out before Him the sighings of your heart; Say, G-d is our trust forever. (Targum on Psalm 62:9)

    This "Word of YHWH" was, according to Targum Jonathan, the Creator

    And the Word [Memra] of YHWH created man in his likeness, in the likeness of YHWH, YHWH created, male and female created He them. (Targ. Jonathan Gen. 1:27)

    This idea is also put forward in the Jerusalem Targum:

    And the Word [Memra] of YHWH said to Moses: "I am He who said unto the world 'Be!' and it was: and who in the future shall say to it 'Be!' and it shall be." And He said: "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'I Am' has sent me to you." (Jerusalem Targum Ex. 3:14)

    The Fragmentary Targum of the Torah also expresses that the Word of YHWH was the Creator:

    The first night, when the "Word of YHWH" was revealed to the world in order to create it, the world was desolate and void, and darkness spread over the &nbsp; face of the abyss and the "Word of the Lord" was bright and illuminating and He called it the first night. (Fragmentary Targum Ex. 12:42)

    That the Word of YHWH was the Creator can also be seen in the Tenach itself:

    By the Word of YHWH were the heavens made, And all the hosts of them by the Spirit of His mouth. (Ps. 33:6)

    The Word was also the covenant maker. For example the Noachdic covenant was between the Word and all mankind:

    And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17)

    The Word also made the Abrahamic covenant as Targum Onkelos also paraphrases

    And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you
    (Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7)

    The Word of YHWH was also the giver of the Mosaic Covenant and the Torah as the Jerusalem Targum (as quoted above) makes the Torah giver "the Word of YHWH" in Ex. 20:1. It was to the Word that Jacob turned to for salvation:

    Our father Jacob said: "My soul does not wait for salvation such as that wrought by Gideon, the son of Joash, for that was but temporal; neither for a salvation like that of Samson, which was only transitory; but for that salvation which You have promised to come, through Your Word unto Your people, the children of Israel; for your salvation my soul hopes." (Targum Jonathan Gen. 49:18)

    That the Word of YHWH is the savior is expressed elsewhere:

    But Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHWH with an everlasting salvation By the Word of YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified. (Targum Jonathan Is. 45:17, 25)

    But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Word of YHWH, their G-d. (Targum Jonathan Hosea 1:7)
 
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Higher Truth

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Hey Evangelion,

How you doin mate? Are these trinitarians still doggin you? I had figured that you would join up by now......I will check in later.

P.S. Keep in mind that the THIRD word in the first book of the Hebrew scriptures is Elohim, and it is plural. [*He* spoke the *Word *and the *Spirit* hovered ]
 
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