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God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Biblewriter, Jul 16, 2021.

  1. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I am a dispensationalist, so I separate the nation Israel from the Body of Christ.

    For you, you lump them together, that is why I asked you the first question, on whether you follow Covenant Theology.
     
  2. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Were those who died in faith, not yet receiving the promises, still declared righteous by God before they were redeemed? You made quite a fuss over that in much of our dialogue.

    The 1000 year reign of Christ, in which God deals with physical Israel according to His promises to them, is a dispensation, just as I explained in the following message:

    I do not lump that 1000 year reign, which is uniquely for Israel after the Battle of Armageddon.

    However, all those saints in the OT, whom God declared righteous along with Abraham, are now redeemed by the Blood of Christ. God accredited righteousness to their account in anticipation of the redemption of the New Covenant.
     
  3. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I already said to you my belief "For me, I believe OT saints are all in Abraham's bosom. They will only receive their righteousness/redemption in the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ for the nation Israel."

    So no, they don't have righteousness NOW.
     
  4. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    When you state "The OT and NT believer are both - together - heirs of the promise of God - made perfect together, both receiving what was promised by faith,"

    you are lumping Israel and the Body of Christ together. You use that word twice
     
  5. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God states that He did declare them righteous.

    Did not God declare Abraham righteous by faith?

    Did not God declare all OT saints righteous by faith?

    Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) "But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    Hebrews 11:4 (WEB)

    By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God testifying with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks.

    Hebrews 11:7 (WEB)

    By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

    Hebrews 11:33
    32 What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, who
    through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [Daniel 6:22-23]
     
  6. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did Lord Jesus not pay for their sins in full? Why then do you think that they must now wait thousands of years later to be redeemed, when Lord Jesus already paid the ransom for their sins, the same as us?

    Hebrews 11:36-40 (WEB)
    36 Others were tried by mocking and scourging, yes, moreover by bonds and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned. [2 Chronicles 24:20-21] They were sawn apart. They were tempted. They were slain with the sword. [Jeremiah 26:20-23; 1 Kings 19:10] They went around in sheep skins and in goat skins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering in deserts, mountains, caves, and the holes of the earth.
    39 These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise, 40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

    The OT and NT believer are both - together - heirs of the promise of God - made perfect together, both receiving what was promised by faith.

    Romans 4:16-17 (WEB)
    16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. 17 As it is written, “ I have made you a father of many nations.” [Genesis 17:5]
     
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    As I already said to you, you are interpreting those verses incorrectly, because you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

    I already gave you the references from the apostle Peter himself, who spoke to Israel after the cross

    Acts 3:19-21
    1 Peter 1:9
    1 Peter 4:17-18

    It all clearly states that, for the nation Israel, their forgiveness of sins will come "corporately", when the entire nation accepts Jesus as their promised Messiah.

    How would you interpret any of those 3 passages?
     
  8. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    <<Acts 3:19-21 (WEB) 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.>>

    That Passage is true for all believers. Lord Jesus will come again to restore all things, just as He promised. Some of those restoration prophecies deal with the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, when God will deal with Israel after the Battle of Armageddon. In others, God prophesied about a new heavens and earth where righteousness will dwell and death will be no more.

    How does that Passage refute God who declared the OT saints righteous by faith?

    Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) "But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

    <<1 Peter 1:9 (WEB) 9 receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.>>

    That is true for all Christians. We are to endure in the end in our faith, and so receive the salvation of our souls.

    But how does that Passage refute God who declared the OT saints righteous by faith?

    Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) "But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

    <<1 Peter 4:17-18 (WEB) 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don’t obey the Good News of God? 18 “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will happen to the ungodly and the sinner?” [Proverbs 11:31]>>

    The household of God are Jews and Gentiles - all those who believe. We are saved by faith. Those who disobey the Good News of God will be lost.

    But how does that Passage refute God who declared the OT saints righteous by faith?

    Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) "But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]




     
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, when Peter was preaching in Acts 3, he addressed the Men of Israel (Acts 3:12)

    He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel

    The fact that you immediately interpret that as "true for all believers" again indicate you are lumping Israel with the Body of Christ.

    That is the trademark doctrine of Covenant Theologians.
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Gospel is the same for all. There exists only one Gospel - not one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles.

    Paul also refers to the Gospel he proclaimed as the proclamation about the Kingdom of God, which he preached to the Gentiles:

    Acts 14:22 (NIV) 22 strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

    Acts 20:25 (NIV) 25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again.

    Acts 28:23 (NIV) 23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the Kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

    Acts 28:31 (NIV) 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

    Romans 14:17 (NIV)
    17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

    1 Corinthians 4:20 (NIV) 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
     
  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So your reasoning is

    Peter preached about the Kingdom of God
    Paul also preached about the Kingdom of God

    Therefore, both are preaching the same gospel?
     
  12. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, they both preached the same Gospel. There is no difference in the message of the Gospel. The Gospel is the same throughout the New Testament.
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    What if you hear a reasoning as follow?

    I preached that my wife had long hair and wearing dresses.
    Someone else also preached his wife had long hair and wearing dresses.

    Therefore we must be talking about/married to the same woman.

    Would you laugh and immediately realized the illogical reasoning?
     
  14. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You first brought up the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    ---------------
    Guojing said:
    Firstly, when Peter was preaching in Acts 3, he addressed the Men of Israel (Acts 3:12)

    He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel

    ---------------

    I was merely responding to what you wrote, since you appeared to think it significant that Peter was preaching to the Jews the "gospel of the Kingdom."

    While the audience to whom the Gospel was preached was different, the Gospel remained the same.

    Neither Lord Jesus or the Apostles ever mentioned there were two Gospels. Rather, only one Gospel is referred to.

    Here is what Lord Jesus stated. Notice, Lord Jesus never commanded or instructed a different Gospel to be preached, but rather, that the Gospel preaching should start in Jerusalem.

    Matthew 24:14 (WEB) 14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

    Mark 13:9-11 (WEB) 10 The Good News must first be preached to all the nations. 11 When they lead you away and deliver you up, don’t be anxious beforehand, or premeditate what you will say, but say whatever will be given you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

    Luke 24:46-48 (WEB) 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

    Do we see any hint in the above Passages that Lord Jesus is teaching two Gospels that would be preached – one to the Jews under the Law, and the other to the Gentiles? Neither do any of the New Testament writers teach about two Gospels.

    In fact, Lord Jesus instructed Paul to bear His name to Jews and Gentiles alike - no mention of two Gospels.

    Acts 9:12-17 (WEB)
    15 But the Lord said to him, “Go your way, for he (Paul) is my chosen vessel to bear my name before the nations and kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake.”

    Would God not be the author of confusion if at the very same time Paul preached the Gospel to the Jews, he was teaching a different Gospel to the Gentiles?

    Any other Gospel but the one preached was to be condemned:

    Galatians 1:6-9 (NIV)
    6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

    Paul taught only one Gospel, which is a sincere and pure devotion to Lord Jesus, which is the same Gospel Lord Jesus taught.

    2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (NIV)
    3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    So, to say that Paul was teaching another Gospel to the Gentiles is false, forcing one’s own opinions onto the Scriptures, making God appear to say something He never stated or authorized.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    That is why I stated you subscribed to covenant theology.
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
    3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
    5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6
     
  17. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ephesians 3:6 (NIV) 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Then there were at least a few people indwelled with the Spirit, in some way, before the New Covenant was completed at Calvary. It may have been a precursor to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. However, the scripture below cannot be ignored. John the Baptist was indwelled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. This was no doubt a miraculous gift from God to this special man who would announce the coming of the Messiah.

    I have heard others argue before that nobody was indwelled with the Spirit before the Day of Pentecost. However, there are a few exceptions below.

    Remember that the Holy Spirit stands outside of space and time.


    Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


    Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


    Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


    Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,


    .
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Wow, only today then I realized the NIV inserted the term "Israel" into this verse.

    No wonder you are unable to distinguish the difference between Israel and the Body of Christ.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?

    (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)



    The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?


    1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)


    2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?


    3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?


    4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?


    5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?


    6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?


    7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?


    8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)


    9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9)



    10. Watch the YouTube video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.



    Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:



    “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


    Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


    John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


    "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

    John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)

    What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

    Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?

    Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?

    Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?

    Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?

    .
     
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